ECV Accidernt at MK

[Friendly Frog]

I think it is time to use a pass (call it Gac or any name you want) for the buses. This will resolve UPFRONT the number of people allowed on the bus and make allowances for alternate bus entrance.

At resort check in you will inform Disney of your special transportation needs. For the sake of this thread, I will focus on tiedown spots on the bus but it could also be used for other special loading circumstances.

Disney then can determine the number of people in the party and discuss allowable party limits based on REASONABLE family NEEDS. It will be easier for a large group to be told they will have to split up up at this point, rather than when standing in a bus line *.
( A party of 6 kids and one adult will have different reasonable needs than a party of 6 adults and one child. A flat number system is not in the best interest of anyone.)

Once a transportation pass system is put in effect, Disney should go back to the alternate bus line entrance method . This is really no different than a GAC guest using an alternate ride entrance. It will be a more efficient use of the tiedown spots on the bus than the current "new mainstream line" allows. Again, if Disney can allow alternate ride access, they should have no problem with allowing alternate bus line access. They just need to make reasonable limits on the number loading.

This will take some pressure off of the bus driver. The driver would not have to argue about limits as the transportation pass/GAC will be clearly marked to the number allowed on the bus.

* If a group is not happy with the # of people allowed on the transportation GAC, they are are welcomed to mainstream through the line and be transported together as space is available. ( stand by line)

Efficient use of bus space, reasonable enforced limits on travel companions and even a system for Disney to better monitor the number of passengers in need of tiedown spots.

 

[A Mickeyfan]

Here's an example from our trip in March 2011.
My family was at Epcot and DD, who uses a wheelchair, was tired and went back to OKW with her dad.
The other 5 of us decided to walk to Boardwalk and take the bus from there to Downtown Disney. All of the Boardwalk area resorts share a bus and the Boardwalk resort is the last stop.
When we got to the stop, there were about 10 people waiting for various buses, including a woman in a wheelchair with a male companion. We asked if a DTD had been there recently. The other guests said they had only been there a few minutes and had not seen one.
The woman in the wheelchair said they had been there about 30 minutes and the DTD bus should be coming shortly because the last one had arrived about 10 minutes after they got to the stop. They wanted to go to DTD, but had not been able to get on that bus because it was too full.
We talked to them a bit while we were waiting and they said, while they liked the Boardwalk area resorts because of the ease of getting to Epcot and the Studio, they probably would not stay there again because of getting anywhere else by bus was a pain and they had usually not been able to get on the first bus that arrived.
We waited about 10 more minutes for the next DTD bus to arrive - it was also too full for the guest with a wheelchair to be loaded. The driver suggested they go to another stop because Boardwalk was the last stop and the bus would be likely be too full when it got there. The man said they had tried that, but the bus was too full with returning guests who were planning to get off at later stops, so that didn't work either.

So anyway, my party of 5 got on the bus and all got seats. The rest of the walking guests waiting for the bus got on, even though they arrived after us. I could not see everyone who got on, but, including us, there were at least 12.
We had all arrived after the guests with the wheelchair, but we got on and our bus was the second that guest with a wheelchair had not gotten on.

So fair? No.
I don't think there is a way to be totally fair.

And, GACs are not used for the bus, but a regular stroller with a stroller as wheelchair sticker will be loaded the same as a wheelchair.

no that is not fair.. I agree.. but as far as a regular stroller, they may be loaded as a wheelchair (if the tag is on them) as to using the ramp, but as posted previously by another poster, if they don't tie down, they will have to be folded up. That is a safety precaution. You cannot just have a stroller opened with a child in it or not, not tied down. Disney needs to come up with a better idea to suit all.. for safety and fairness to all... It isn't fair to either party to have to stand and watch buses go by them because others behind them are getting on first.

 

[A Mickeyfan]

Maybe Disney can have a special bus that holds only wheelchair, ECV and medical strollers and their party's for the peak times of day/night. On slower times, they can do a will call as you do with a taxi. With the amount of people, I would bet they can fill one up during peak hours. I don't mean a regular bus with only the straps they have, but a special bus, like the ones Para-Transit uses. I am sure it would not be a waste of time and money.. they can have one bus for each resort run as the regular buses have.. like the Value's have one bus (except for Pop, they have their own), so they get one para transit bus. The mods each have their own bus, so they would each get their own para transit. See what I am saying.. that would solve some problems. sure if you miss the bus, you will have to wait, but it might be better than waiting and never getting on

I know years ago I have waited up to an hour at the end of the night to get on the bus.. and that is the regular line, walking onto it with 3 young children and a folded up stroller. It wasn't until recent years did Disney start with the piggy back buses. Years ago they didn't do this and when the bus was full, you waited for the next one.. and sometimes it was 15-20 minutes... I had seen 3 & 4 buses go by before getting on one at night for the Value Resorts years ago... I am sure a para transit bus won't be anything like that..

 

[deegack]

Maybe Disney can have a special bus that holds only wheelchair, ECV and medical strollers and their party's for the peak times of day/night. On slower times, they can do a will call as you do with a taxi. With the amount of people, I would bet they can fill one up during peak hours. I don't mean a regular bus with only the straps they have, but a special bus, like the ones Para-Transit uses. I am sure it would not be a waste of time and money.. they can have one bus for each resort run as the regular buses have.. like the Value's have one bus (except for Pop, they have their own), so they get one para transit bus. The mods each have their own bus, so they would each get their own para transit. See what I am saying.. that would solve some problems. sure if you miss the bus, you will have to wait, but it might be better than waiting and never getting on

I know years ago I have waited up to an hour at the end of the night to get on the bus.. and that is the regular line, walking onto it with 3 young children and a folded up stroller. It wasn't until recent years did Disney start with the piggy back buses. Years ago they didn't do this and when the bus was full, you waited for the next one.. and sometimes it was 15-20 minutes... I had seen 3 & 4 buses go by before getting on one at night for the Value Resorts years ago... I am sure a para transit bus won't be anything like that..

I think separate but equal has been declared unconstitutional because once its separate it's not equal

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

Maybe Disney can have a special bus that holds only wheelchair, ECV and medical strollers and their party's for the peak times of day/night. On slower times, they can do a will call as you do with a taxi. With the amount of people, I would bet they can fill one up during peak hours. I don't mean a regular bus with only the straps they have, but a special bus, like the ones Para-Transit uses. I am sure it would not be a waste of time and money.. they can have one bus for each resort run as the regular buses have.. like the Value's have one bus (except for Pop, they have their own), so they get one para transit bus. The mods each have their own bus, so they would each get their own para transit. See what I am saying.. that would solve some problems. sure if you miss the bus, you will have to wait, but it might be better than waiting and never getting on

Ah jolly, getting seperated just because you happen to have some wheels beneath your bum. As already explained; seperation can never be equality.



I happen to reside in a country where we have a seperated transportation system. Once in an oddball day you'll find one oddball "accessible" bus. Trains are supposed to be "accessible" after you first need to ring in you travel at least 24 hours prior to travel (and hope they show up, as no help is not getting on the train). Because of that inaccessible system we have so called "accessible transportation". Compare it to paratransit. Result? Not only is said system known for it's unbelievably high numbers of regulation violation (regularly resulting in life threatening situations or at best simply not get your transportation) it has it's result on the general public transportation. You will not believe the comments, looks and opinions to those that even "dare" to use the oddball acessible public transportation options. Because the common conclusion is that there is paratransit (not knowing anything about what that means in practice), the shortsightedness and aggressive behaviour only has become worse. It makes the regular wheelchair-on-bus-not-during-my-disney-trip on this board a pure picknick.

Result? By far most of those qualifying for the paratransit system and relying on it have had to make the decision not to use them. Unsafe, unreliable, not working at all. Nor will they use "accessible" public transportation. Too few options, too high a risk of mistakes and even higher risk of getting refused because of huge chips on shoulders of those going "not in my backyard, I do not want to be "bothered" by anybody else" followed by a "they should have their own transportation".

Not that this is surprising, it's the same sentiment we've already seen displayed time and again when this subject gets mentioned on the regular DISboard again. It's called human behaviour and an out of control entitlement problem that is rapidly becoming the norm of our day in time. Me, me, me, god have mercy with those that even dare to be a "bother" to anyone.

 

[EastYorkDisneyFan]

Here's an example from our trip in March 2011.
My family was at Epcot and DD, who uses a wheelchair, was tired and went back to OKW with her dad.
The other 5 of us decided to walk to Boardwalk and take the bus from there to Downtown Disney. All of the Boardwalk area resorts share a bus and the Boardwalk resort is the last stop.
When we got to the stop, there were about 10 people waiting for various buses, including a woman in a wheelchair with a male companion. We asked if a DTD had been there recently. The other guests said they had only been there a few minutes and had not seen one.
The woman in the wheelchair said they had been there about 30 minutes and the DTD bus should be coming shortly because the last one had arrived about 10 minutes after they got to the stop. They wanted to go to DTD, but had not been able to get on that bus because it was too full.
We talked to them a bit while we were waiting and they said, while they liked the Boardwalk area resorts because of the ease of getting to Epcot and the Studio, they probably would not stay there again because of getting anywhere else by bus was a pain and they had usually not been able to get on the first bus that arrived.
We waited about 10 more minutes for the next DTD bus to arrive - it was also too full for the guest with a wheelchair to be loaded. The driver suggested they go to another stop because Boardwalk was the last stop and the bus would be likely be too full when it got there. The man said they had tried that, but the bus was too full with returning guests who were planning to get off at later stops, so that didn't work either.

So anyway, my party of 5 got on the bus and all got seats. The rest of the walking guests waiting for the bus got on, even though they arrived after us. I could not see everyone who got on, but, including us, there were at least 12.
We had all arrived after the guests with the wheelchair, but we got on and our bus was the second that guest with a wheelchair had not gotten on.

So fair? No.
I don't think there is a way to be totally fair.

And, GACs are not used for the bus, but a regular stroller with a stroller as wheelchair sticker will be loaded the same as a wheelchair.

I don't get what you mean by this being unfair if you were in a large city like New York for example and waiting to board a bus that was standing room only you would have to wait there too, why does Disney have to be different then everyone else when it comes to buses. Should the drive say to everyone on the bus I'm sorry everyone has to get off so we can load someone in a wheelchair?

 

[Piper]

I don't get what you mean by this being unfair if you were in a large city like New York for example and waiting to board a bus that was standing room only you would have to wait there too, why does Disney have to be different then everyone else when it comes to buses. Should the drive say to everyone on the bus I'm sorry everyone has to get off so we can load someone in a wheelchair?

Reread what was posted..people arriving after the person in the WC were able to get a seat.

It isn't fair because people arriving AFTER the guest in the wheelchair were able to board......the WC was there before anyone else because it had already not been able to load on a bus.

So you're saying it is fair to have to wait for at least 3 buses, when others could load? NO, not fair at all.

 

[EastYorkDisneyFan]

Reread what was posted..people arriving after the person in the WC were able to get a seat.

It isn't fair because people arriving AFTER the guest in the wheelchair were able to board......the WC was there before anyone else because it had already not been able to load on a bus.

So you're saying it is fair to have to wait for at least 3 buses, when others could load? NO, not fair at all.

So what your trying to say that if a bus can not take someone in a wheelchair or ECV because they already have those spaces filed then they shouldn't take anyone else even if they have space for them. Sorry I don't agree with that at all. Yes it's to bad that the person in a wheelchair may have to wait for another bus.

 

[livndisney]

So what your trying to say that if a bus can not take someone in a wheelchair or ECV because they already have those spaces filed then they shouldn't take anyone else even if they have space for them. Sorry I don't agree with that at all. Yes it's to bad that the person in a wheelchair may have to wait for another bus.

I am starting to think you are purposefully missing the point.

If two people arrive at a bus stop-it is "Equal" for them to both board the bus.

If two people arrive at a bus stop and one cannot board because the already limited space for an ECV is filled, not working, etc, and they have to wait for several busses to receive service, they are no longer "Equal".

I believe law/rule is that buses are not to continue to load non wheeled guests if wheeled guests can no longer board. (I know Sue will correct/comment as she is very familiar with this law/rule).

If you feel WDW syatem is fair- fine-more power to you. For those that do not feel it is fair/equal, please write to WDW and let them know of your experiences.

 

[EastYorkDisneyFan]

I am starting to think you are purposefully missing the point.

What point am I mussing yes I agree it may not be fair but when ids life always fair to everyone.

If two people arrive at a bus stop-it is "Equal" for them to both board the bus.

If two people arrive at a bus stop and one cannot board because the already limited space for an ECV is filled, not working, etc, and they have to wait for several busses to receive service, they are no longer "Equal".

So because someone else can not get on the bus no one can that's fine when there are two people but what if there are 10 plus the wheelchair and five of them who are not with the person in a wheelchair is it fair to make them wait until the person in the wheelchair can get on?

I believe law/rule is that buses are not to continue to load non wheeled guests if wheeled guests can no longer board. (I know Sue will correct/comment as she is very familiar with this law/rule).

If you feel WDW system is fair- fine-more power to you. For those that do not feel it is fair/equal, please write to WDW and let them know of your experiences.

First of all what Law are you talking about. ADA is not a law it is a compliance, and Disney follows it with all aspects of it when hey can.

I guess it comes down to which do they think is better the good of the few or one or the good of the many. If they can take several people on a bus but have to leave behind one how is that unfair?

Also yes the situation you gave does sound really bad for the person in the Wheelchair but relay it comes down to which does Disney Care about more leaving guest behind when they have space for them or making all guest wait until there is space for everyone.

It's the same thing when they double load a bus at he end of the night at the parks. Yes it sucks for the people that need to use the back door and they will have to wait for another bus to come up if they can't get on the first one. But which would you rather having to wait 4 hour in line for a bus at the end of the night with people who are hot a tired or only have to wait two hours. Given the choice I would prefer to only have to wait two.

 

[livndisney]

What point am I mussing yes I agree it may not be fair but when ids life always fair to everyone.

The ADA requires "fair" or equal access to those with disabilities.

So because someone else can not get on the bus no one can that's fine when there are two people but what if there are 10 plus the wheelchair and five of them who are not with the person in a wheelchair is it fair to make them wait until the person in the wheelchair can get on?


The example of the two people was used to provide you with an understanding of "equal"

First of all what Law are you talking about. ADA is not a law it is a compliance, and Disney follows it with all aspects of it when hey can.

According to the ADA website "requirements" is the word they use.

"ADA Questions and Answers. A 31-page booklet giving an overview of the ADA's requirements for ensuring equal opportunity for persons with disabilities in employment, State and local government services, public accommodations, commercial facilities, and transportation, and requiring the establishment of TDD/telephone relay services. (Spanish, Cambodian, Chinese, Hmong, Japanese, Korean, Laotian, Tagalog and Vietnamese editions available from the ADA Information Line.) "

http://www.ada.gov/publicat.htm#Anchor-ADA-44867



I guess it comes down to which do they think is better the good of the few or one or the good of the many. If they can take several people on a bus but have to leave behind one how is that unfair?

Also yes the situation you gave does sound really bad for the person in the Wheelchair but relay it comes down to which does Disney Care about more leaving guest behind when they have space for them or making all guest wait until there is space for everyone.

It's the same thing when they double load a bus at he end of the night at the parks. Yes it sucks for the people that need to use the back door and they will have to wait for another bus to come up if they can't get on the first one. But which would you rather having to wait 4 hour in line for a bus at the end of the night with people who are hot a tired or only have to wait two hours. Given the choice I would prefer to only have to wait two.

And that may be your choice-but others may have a different opinion and can be encouraged to write to Disney.

I personally have never waited 2 or 4 hours for a bus, that may be a bit over the top.

The ADA requires "fair" or equal access to those with disabilities. Like it or not-the ADA has to be followed or lawsuits/complaints follow.

 

[EastYorkDisneyFan]

And that may be your choice-but others may have a different opinion and can be encouraged to write to Disney.

I personally have never waited 2 or 4 hours for a bus, that may be a bit over the top.

The ADA requires "fair" or equal access to those with disabilities. Like it or not-the ADA has to be followed or lawsuits/complaints follow.

2 to 4 was an exaggeration but as I said yes it may seam unfair to those that have to use a Wheelchair or an ECV. It all depends on who is using the definition of fair. Also comparing Disney transportation to a regular city bus company is like comparing a Banana to an Orange. Yes they are they are both fruit, but after that there are major differences.

Also your welcome to complain to Disney but it all comes down to which guest they feel is worth more of an inconvenience too

 

[crashbb]

Also your welcome to complain to Disney but it all comes down to which guest they feel is worth more of an inconvenience too

Actually, it more likely comes down to - which guest has a legal basis to make a fuss. Someone with the ADA behind them can do much more "damage" than someone who is merely complaining.

 

[livndisney]

2 to 4 was an exaggeration but as I said yes it may seam unfair to those that have to use a Wheelchair or an ECV. It all depends on who is using the definition of fair. Also comparing Disney transportation to a regular city bus company is like comparing a Banana to an Orange. Yes they are they are both fruit, but after that there are major differences.

Also your welcome to complain to Disney but it all comes down to which guest they feel is worth more of an inconvenience too

If the guest in the wheelchair feels access is not fair, they can complain and they have the strength of the ADA and DOJ behind them. Compliance with the ADA is not a choice.

As shown on these boards, people will complain about almost anything. Most without merit or even a full understanding of the issue. People complain when they "think" someone is "getting more" than they are, and often the disabled are the target. It is really a shame when disabled people (and their families) have to defend themselves of a board for those with disabilties.

 

[EastYorkDisneyFan]

Actually, it more likely comes down to - which guest has a legal basis to make a fuss. Someone with the ADA behind them can do much more "damage" than someone who is merely complaining.

If that was the case then they wouldn't be doing things they way there are now.

 

[EastYorkDisneyFan]

If the guest in the wheelchair feels access is not fair, they can complain and they have the strength of the ADA and DOJ behind them. Compliance with the ADA is not a choice.

Again as I said before this hasn't happened yet so Disney's policies must be deemed as fair by them.

As shown on these boards, people will complain about almost anything. Most without merit or even a full understanding of the issue. People complain when they "think" someone is "getting more" than they are, and often the disabled are the target. It is really a shame when disabled people (and their families) have to defend themselves of a board for those with disabilties.

No kidding and just so you know Disney doesn't really care what people on a message board think.

 

[livndisney]

If that was the case then they wouldn't be doing things they way there are now.

You mean Disney would not be looking into the matter? Since Disney is currently revisting several bus issues (and other special needs matters) due to the high number of complaints, clearly Disney is starting to understand the changes they made, "may" have looked good on paper. But in practice, those changes have affected access for people protected by the ADA.

 

[livndisney]

Again as I said before this hasn't happened yet so Disney's policies must be deemed as fair by them.



No kidding and just so you know Disney doesn't really care what people on a message board think.

May I ask the last time you were at WDW to make such a statement?

Where you there last week when they were conducting transportation surveys? Or this morning/weekend when they continued to ask questions?

Have you spoken with any Transportation managers who are currently looking into some of the disabled complaints? Have you had conversations with GS management about some pending access changes in the parks?

Or do you just "know".

Trust me, I am well aware of the opinion many CM's at WDW have of these internet message boards. I think their opinion(perhaps rightly so considering) comes from ill informed "know it alls" who post on subjects they have little or no knowledge of.

 

[EastYorkDisneyFan]

You mean Disney would not be looking into the matter? Since Disney is currently revisting several bus issues (and other special needs matters) due to the high number of complaints, clearly Disney is starting to understand the changes they made, "may" have looked good on paper. But in practice, those changes have affected access for people protected by the ADA.

That is not what I ment you mentioned about the ADA and DOJ being called into Disney. If something like that happened then it would be all over the news and so far it's not.

Next remember Disney is running a transportation system, just like New York, Boston, and any other major city you want to pick and they are following the same rules as they are. True some people may not like it but there is not much you can do when a bus is full seating wise and only a few people standing can get on. Why should Disney be held to a different standard then New York?

 

[livndisney]

That is not what I ment you mentioned about the ADA and DOJ being called into Disney. If something like that happened then it would be all over the news and so far it's not.

Next remember Disney is running a transportation system, just like New York, Boston, and any other major city you want to pick and they are following the same rules as they are. True some people may not like it but there is not much you can do when a bus is full seating wise and only a few people standing can get on. Why should Disney be held to a different standard then New York?

I think you need to pick a side-first you said Disney is NOT like a bus system in a big city and now you say it is.

Either way, it is clear you are not able to understand the point(s) being made. Disney must comply with the ADA. Just because there is no headline today-does not mean there is not an issue. In truth, I would hope Disney would listen to its guests (as it has in the past) and work with them to not have to have a suit filed against them. For years Disney has been known as a good place for those with disablities to vacation. They do usually provide "good" service. Some recent changes have made it a little more challenging, but hopefully those challenges will be corrected soon.

You may want to read a bit to help you understand the ADA and what it covers.

In the mean time, Have a Disney Day!