Anyone feel like they're not "keeping up with the Jonses"?

[LSUmiss]

Some of this is true! But I'm noticing people mentioning things like the size home they own, and the size car they own, and wedding money. Even THAT is a jumping off point that some people can't get to.

I live in NYC and a number of my friends have apartments that would never work for hosting events unless everyone was sitting on each other's laps. I only just moved into an apartment where I can host people again (more due to roommate situation than size). And maybe this gives me a unique perspective on how not having money can affect so much more than budget. Being constantly surrounded by things so out of reach that your peers are enjoying can make you feel poor. I agree that a good attitude can help but it certainly is not only mindset that makes you feel poor. I think anyone who has struggled to get going in a city can agree with that.

Again, I am not begrudging that people have different circumstances, it just seems like some circumstances aren't even considered when discussing this. Not everything I speak of applies to me personally, it's just stuff that I am familiar with based on what others my age are or have gone through. I know it can be done, because when I moved here, I lived very lean myself. My apartment was 7 feet wide and didn't have a bathroom OR a kitchen (made it a little challenging to not eat out though). I still don't splurge on certain things so that I CAN splurge on things I value more (travel, experiences, etc.). I don't consider myself spoiled because I was able to start out here at all, but I do recognize what about my situation was a privilege that not all have.

Anyway. tl;dr everyone has their own unique circumstances and challenges but we all end up dead in the end. I'd rather value the whole journey than the last leg.

I noticed that about things like saving their wedding $$. I know very few ppl who got wedding $$. The ppl I knew who did were very wealthy.

 

[Searc]

I'm curious what your definition of "spoiled" is? I'm not talking spending $400 on shoes. I'm talking about little things, like being able to go to brunch with your friends instead of having to say no every single time. Or spending $50 to see your favorite band live instead of having to miss out yet again.

I do think it's interesting that you call people who don't live lean "spoiled" in the same paragraph that you point out that your son is getting assistance from you to pay his college tuition. And trust me, I think that's great and it makes a huge difference when starting out after college. It just made me laugh a little, how you're judging other adults in the same breath as tossing that in. I actually find it a little offensive, to be frank. You're not less of an adult if you choose to live a little.

You can find it offensive as you wish. I honestly don't care. I had zero help from my mother for any of my college expenses because she couldn't afford it. I had student loans because that was the only way I could go to college. I borrowed the money and I paid it back, with interest. My son will have a small amount of student loan debt when he graduates and that was done purposely.

I do think it is spoiled to expect to be able to go to concerts and out to eat instead of paying your obligations. Sometimes, being an adult sucks. Sometimes, being a 45 year old who has to make financial decisions I'd rather not, sucks. If you don't have the money, you don't do it. That is a VERY difficult concept for some Millennials to accept, let alone put into practice. I'm tired of the whining about student loans from a vocal minority. You borrowed the money, you knew up front you'd have to pay it back.

 

[skyblue17]

You can find it offensive as you wish. I honestly don't care. I had zero help from my mother for any of my college expenses because she couldn't afford it. I had student loans because that was the only way I could go to college. I borrowed the money and I paid it back, with interest. My son will have a small amount of student loan debt when he graduates and that was done purposely.

I do think it is spoiled to expect to be able to go to concerts and out to eat instead of paying your obligations. Sometimes, being an adult sucks. Sometimes, being a 45 year old who has to make financial decisions I'd rather not, sucks. If you don't have the money, you don't do it. That is a VERY difficult concept for some Millennials to accept, let alone put into practice. I'm tired of the whining about student loans from a vocal minority. You borrowed the money, you knew up front you'd have to pay it back.

But saving for retirement isn’t an obligation. It’s an allocation of (sometimes already limited) funds. No one is being a brat by opting to sometimes allocate that money elsewhere. And sometimes that choice is informed by how much other money HAS to go somewhere else.

I won’t even get into how bananas it is that 17yo kids are making decisions that they may have to answer for financially for a large part of their adult lives. Suffice to say that is part of why I said the higher education situation has a lot of issues.

I think it’s great when parents can limit their children’s student loan debt. I don’t think it’s great to call kids who have it spoiled because they want to do stuff occasionally.

 

[LSUmiss]

You can find it offensive as you wish. I honestly don't care. I had zero help from my mother for any of my college expenses because she couldn't afford it. I had student loans because that was the only way I could go to college. I borrowed the money and I paid it back, with interest. My son will have a small amount of student loan debt when he graduates and that was done purposely.

I do think it is spoiled to expect to be able to go to concerts and out to eat instead of paying your obligations. Sometimes, being an adult sucks. Sometimes, being a 45 year old who has to make financial decisions I'd rather not, sucks. If you don't have the money, you don't do it. That is a VERY difficult concept for some Millennials to accept, let alone put into practice. I'm tired of the whining about student loans from a vocal minority. You borrowed the money, you knew up front you'd have to pay it back.

But not having the $ & putting that extra $ towards savings are 2 different things. I didn’t see where pp said she was not paying obligations.

 

[LSUmiss]

But saving for retirement isn’t an obligation. It’s an allocation of (sometimes already limited) funds. No one is being a brat by opting to sometimes allocate that money elsewhere. And sometimes that choice is informed by how much other money HAS to go somewhere else.

I won’t even get into how bananas it is that 17yo kids are making decisions that they may have to answer for financially for a large part of their adult lives. Suffice to say that is part of why I said the higher education situation has a lot of issues.

I think it’s great when parents can limit their children’s student loan debt. I don’t think it’s great to call kids who have it spoiled because they want to do stuff occasionally.

Here they made it state law to require kids to fill out FASFAs before they can graduate high school. That’s insane to me!! In much of this state, the children nor parents are educated enough to make those kinds of decisions.

 

[RamblingMad]

It seems like some older adults don't really grasp that young adults are entering adulthood already in debt, and when you start out that way, saving for retirement seems so distant that taking some money to do something for yourself and keep up with the Jones in THAT way is as important.

This is our reality. Big deal. This is what folks voted for because of their fear of government run healthcare and funded universities. This isn't the reality for my friends in Europe. And their cost of living is significantly cheaper too. They just pay more taxes. Folks here pay less taxes, so this is their reality here. Deal with it.

 

[slpeters]

When I think about keeping up with the Joneses I think about "stuff". We've kind of gotten to that point where more things doesn't really have a lot of appeal. Don't get me wrong. I know that that is because we have the basics, and we're very fortunate that way. We had a kind of come to Jesus moment around money almost fifteen years ago--paid off about $25,000 in credit card debt (I know right?) in about 18 months, built up an emergency fund of about a year's pay, and generally decided that security was more important to us than stuff. A lot of our friends think of us as positively cheap. We have a little one bedroom condo that we love but I know our friends think is small. I'm 48 and I've owned exactly one car in my life (which I don't actually drive, my husband does), a 12 year old Yaris. Our phones cost about a couple hundred between the two of them. Despite all that our newest kick is Marie Kondo and in the last year or so we've discovered that despite fifteen years of cheapness we've still managed to accumulate so much stuff that doesn't really contribute to our lives. So we've kind of decided that things aren't all that important to us.

One of the things that sort of surprised us when we really took our finances in hand was that experiences really are important to us--less important than security, perhaps, but way above things. We'd never really known that because there had never been real financial room to do things before. It didn't mean we didn't do things, but it meant when we did them we did them kind of half *** and then we felt bad about doing them at all. I didn't realize until we sort of took our spending in hand (I used to manage a book store and would sort of roll my eyes internally when people would talk about how a book "changed my life" but Total Money Makeover really did change our lives) that I used to hate spending money and I felt bad about every dime I spent. I felt irresponsible and out of control and afraid--and it tainted everything I bought. But when we stopped frittering our money away we found that there was more than we thought. And when we stopped paying fees and interest and the like, there was even more. And once we'd done the things to answer all the what ifs--insurance, set aside money for retirement, a substantial emergency fund--we discovered there was still more. I guess we could have upped our standard of living, bought more stuff, better stuff. But that didn't really appeal.

So we did stuff. We go on a couple week to ten day vacations a year--they're not overly extravagant but it's a couple times a year where we don't really pinch the pennies. We go to the theater from time to time. We throw a really quite lavish holiday party each year--that is open house style because all the guests can't fit in our home at once (LOL). And we go to brunch every Sunday, have for years. And it really is so regular that people will call and ask where we're going and invite themselves along. Sometimes it's just us, sometimes it's us and ten hangers on. And I don't feel bad about it because we've looked out at what we need to do to be happy and feel relatively secure and now we're making conscious choices about how we spend the rest.

In the end everyone has a certain amount of money, some more, some less, but hardly anyone ever gets enough. So you figure out what will bring you the most happiness, remembering all the worries that sap your happiness, and buy as much happiness as you can...

 

[DLgal]

I noticed that about things like saving their wedding $$. I know very few ppl who got wedding $$. The ppl I knew who did were very wealthy.

Seriously. We got $500 in cash as a wedding gift from a distant uncle. That was it. It bought the couch for our rental apartment.

When people make comments to the effect of having used gifted money as a house downpayment, well, that's a special kind of privileged. My parents are upper middle class (always have been) and I have received exactly $0 in assistance from them.

 

[QueenIsabella]

Seriously. We got $500 in cash as a wedding gift from a distant uncle. That was it. It bought the couch for our rental apartment.

When people make comments to the effect of having used gifted money as a house downpayment, well, that's a special kind of privileged. My parents are upper middle class (always have been) and I have received exactly $0 in assistance from them.

This surprises me. When I say we used our wedding money for a house down payment, I'm talking the $20 and $50 checks we got, not some huge amounts. Our first house cost $69k (in 1987), we put 5% down. Sorry, no special privilege here. It was money from aunts, uncles, and cousins. We were only 2 years post-college, most of our college friends were as broke as we were. Maybe it's cultural or regional to give money as a wedding gift? My sister got married in 2000, she got a couple thousand in wedding cash, too. And our extended family is very blue collar/middle class, no Vanderbilts or Rockefellers here.

 

[LSUmiss]

This surprises me. When I say we used our wedding money for a house down payment, I'm talking the $20 and $50 checks we got, not some huge amounts. Our first house cost $69k (in 1987), we put 5% down. Sorry, no special privilege here. It was money from aunts, uncles, and cousins. We were only 2 years post-college, most of our college friends were as broke as we were. Maybe it's cultural or regional to give money as a wedding gift? My sister got married in 2000, she got a couple thousand in wedding cash, too. And our extended family is very blue collar/middle class, no Vanderbilts or Rockefellers here.

But that’s where area & col & all that matters. My down payment was $14,000 b/c the loan required that & not on an expensive house but on a modestly priced house. In my area it’s one of the cheaper priced homes b/c we got lucky. The smaller/cheapest houses are in less than desirable areas so unless we were willing to leave town (which we weren’t), it is what it is.

 

[DLgal]

This surprises me. When I say we used our wedding money for a house down payment, I'm talking the $20 and $50 checks we got, not some huge amounts. Our first house cost $69k (in 1987), we put 5% down. Sorry, no special privilege here. It was money from aunts, uncles, and cousins. We were only 2 years post-college, most of our college friends were as broke as we were. Maybe it's cultural or regional to give money as a wedding gift? My sister got married in 2000, she got a couple thousand in wedding cash, too. And our extended family is very blue collar/middle class, no Vanderbilts or Rockefellers here.

We got married in 2001 at age 22. We had a small WDW wedding. Half our families didn't come due to stupid drama. Our entire guest count was 35. Most were our college friends and immediate families. We paid for our wedding and didn't ask for gifts because people traveled to WDW for it and were mostly broke new college grads. (Most friends crashed in one of their uncles houses in Orlando). Had our entire families come, we may have cleared like $2000.

Our first job location out of college (military assigment) was San Diego. A home in the area we lived in started at $350,000. We would have needed $70,000 for a standard 20% down payment. Instead, we were already $45,000 in debt (student loans, credit card debt, car loans). We didn't qualify for a VA loan for $350k because our income was only like $36,000, not to mention the debt.

It's very hard to get a good start when you are in that situation.

The fact that your first home cost under $70k was why you were able to buy a home right away.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I think we have to keep in mind how things were 'back in the day' ain't what they are like now and it's something I even have to remind myself from time to time.

Even me, we built our home in 2014 when our metro was a buyer's market and was still recovering from the Recession in terms of new home permits. It didn't take too too long afterwards for that to switch and we've been in a hot seller's market ever since then.

Using an inflation calculator in Jan 1987 $69K has the same buying power as of Dec 2019 as nearly $159,500. The average sales price in my entire metro in November 2019 was just over $229K. Back in November 2015 it was $186K. That's the entire metro which is between 2 states. Individual cities vary as do counties. My County average sales in November 2019 was nearly $364K.

We did get some money from our wedding and I have no memory of exactly how much it was but I doubt we earmarked it for our house. It just collectively went into bank accounts.

 

[QueenIsabella]

We got married in 2001 at age 22. We had a small WDW wedding. Half our families didn't come due to stupid drama. Our entire guest count was 35. Most were our college friends and immediate families. We paid for our wedding and didn't ask for gifts because people traveled to WDW for it and were mostly broke new college grads. (Most friends crashed in one of their uncles houses in Orlando). Had our entire families come, we may have cleared like $2000.

Our first job location out of college (military assigment) was San Diego. A home in the area we lived in started at $350,000. We would have needed $70,000 for a standard 20% down payment. Instead, we were already $45,000 in debt (student loans, credit card debt, car loans). We didn't qualify for a VA loan for $350k because our income was only like $36,000, not to mention the debt.

It's very hard to get a good start when you are in that situation.

The fact that your first home cost under $70k was why you were able to buy a home right away.

You're right--the house was in rural upstate NY--nothing like the prices in San Diego. And DH and I both have engineering degrees--they generally won't make you rich, but do provide solid, dependable employment and income. We bought our first house 6 months after our wedding (I was 23, he was 24), and the bank would have lent us twice the amount, based on our income and credit scores. I should also mention that my parents were Catholic, so I had a lot of relatives at our wedding. It was still a modest affair--we emphasized lots of people versus fancy venue and pricey trappings. Which isn't meant to be a criticism of your choosing a destination wedding, BTW--I think it's important to have the wedding that YOU want, not what suits someone else.

Now, my oldest lives near Boston, and she's doing fine for a recent graduate, but she won't be buying a house any time soon.

 

[barkley]

When people make comments to the effect of having used gifted money as a house downpayment, well, that's a special kind of privileged. My parents are upper middle class (always have been) and I have received exactly $0 in assistance from them.

dh and i married in 1991. we were renters when we married and just for a lark, b/c the area we lived in was being developed into houses and condos we decided to see what home ownership was going for. we were shocked to immediately be marketed on how reasonable the prices were with 'parental monetary gifts'. from what i recall, the idea was if newlyweds didn't have enough of a down payment to buy they 'simply asked for money' from their parents-with the selling realtors very well versed in how to structure the money in installments to avoid taxes.

dh and i were floored. we never would have considered buying a home if we couldn't afford it-never, ever would have thought of either of our parents gifting us money to make a down payment.

This surprises me. When I say we used our wedding money for a house down payment, I'm talking the $20 and $50 checks we got, not some huge amounts. Our first house cost $69k (in 1987), we put 5% down. Sorry, no special privilege here. It was money from aunts, uncles, and cousins. We were only 2 years post-college, most of our college friends were as broke as we were. Maybe it's cultural or regional to give money as a wedding gift? My sister got married in 2000, she got a couple thousand in wedding cash, too. And our extended family is very blue collar/middle class, no Vanderbilts or Rockefellers here.

when we ultimately bought our first home it was the same thing-small amounts of money we received as wedding gifts (average-$25) coupled with, quite honestly, refunds on unwanted or duplicate gifts (back before gift cards when a department store would actually give you cash in hand for a wedding registry return). we paid the minimum amount down and got stuck with pmi (and 11% interest which wasn't considered bad back then). were so thrilled to re-fi when property values went up/interest rates went down.

that was going on 29 years ago, and i must have run with a lower economic class despite what i consider very well paying jobs my friends/their parents then had (friends have now) b/c i do not know a single person who has gifted any portion of a house down payment nor have their adult children ever approached them.

 

[barkley]

But that’s where area & col & all that matters. My down payment was $14,000 b/c the loan required that & not on an expensive house but on a modestly priced house. In my area it’s one of the cheaper priced homes b/c we got lucky. The smaller/cheapest houses are in less than desirable areas so unless we were willing to leave town (which we weren’t), it is what it is.

absolutely area and col matter.

when we got married we lived in the san francisco bay area. no way we could afford to be homeowners where we worked so like the majority of our co-workers we had to buy not only several cities but several counties away from where we worked. despite for my/dh's individual jobs paying at the top rate for that government job in the state, in order to be homeowners in the high col area we worked/lived, we, like the bulk of our co-workers, bought an average hour to hour and a half commute one way from work.

 

[bakerworld]

Middle Ground
We enjoyed WDW with our kids and put as much 'as we could afford' into our retirement, with a bit of financial gymnastics using our dependents. In the end, it won't be as much as you save that will impact your retirement investments as the economic roller coaster. Don't stress - don't be listen to the Jones who say you must have/do this or that - just do what you can.

 

[SaintsManiac]

We got lucky on our house down payment. FIL cashed out some stocks for my husband. We put down payments on a car and house. Bought the house in 2009 and got the first time homebuyer credit back. It was a really good deal and I am forever grateful.

 

[Captainkidd76]

We had our 401k rep in the office last week so I took the opportunity to meet with him. To my surprise, he said we actually weren't in a bad spot at all. He recommnded about a 2-3% increase which I had already planned on anyway. I'm in sales, so it's a bit more complicated for me since I don't get base salary raises. But given how easy it is to increase or decrease contributions, it's not that big of a deal.

 

[MrsPete]

An excellent point. Two higher earning people who can pool their SS checks to pay living expenses (rent, utilities, etc) can do ok on just SS. But a single person? Good luck with that.

Consider that at some point half of that two-SS check couple will die, leaving the other widowed. So the remaining spouse will instantly have his or her income slashed by 50%. It's something to consider in your retirement planning.

I am younger than my husband (and in better health, and I come from a long-lived family), so we've always assumed that I will need more retirement income than he will. If things fall out as expected, he will have me as a caretaker in his last years. I'll still be doing the housecleaning and driving, etc. On the other hand, when I reach those last years, I'll probably have to pay for those things. So our plans include more money for me than for him.

Just so you know, Medicare is not free. It costs, this year, 135.50 per month per person, and (of course) it only covers a portion of your health care

I consider myself pretty well informed about retirement issues, but I only learned this about a year ago. I was shocked. My husband and I have been paying hundreds every month for decades, and I (foolishly) thought senior citizens paid only if they wanted "extra" coverage -- which isn't exactly wrong because Part A is no-cost to most people, but it only pays for inpatient hospital coverage. Most of us want a whole lot more coverage than that.

When I learned that Medicare costs, I started reading and talking to retired people about what they pay -- and I feel better prepared, and the cost will be significantly less than I pay now -- but I am still disappointed that I'm paying NOW and will pay more LATER.

Also in many areas paying off your mortgage doesn’t mean you’re “rent” free. The amount of homeowners, flood insurance, & taxes I pay in my area equals about 1/2 of my “mortgage” payment now & those continue to creep up yearly. So I’ll still be paying a good bit once my mortgage is paid off.

That's crazy. I paid off my house a decade and a half ago, and my housing expenses are less than 2K/year (taxes and homeowner's insurance).

 

[DLgal]

Consider that at some point half of that two-SS check couple will die, leaving the other widowed. So the remaining spouse will instantly have his or her income slashed by 50%. It's something to consider in your retirement planning.

That's not how it works though. When one person dies, the other continues to receive the higher of the two amounts. For example, my dads ss payment is $2700. My mom's is half of his because she didn't work very much, so $1350. Their total payment is $4050/mo.

If my dad dies, my mom stops getting her $1350, but keeps getting my dad's $2700. Her income is reduced by approximately 1/3.

If my mom dies, my dad doesn't receive her $1350, but keeps getting his $2700.

In effect, the higher earning spouse's payment keeps coming, regardless. The income is only "cut in half" if both spouses have the same payment.