DVC due's for Gondola

Transportation dues for Riviera are $1.34 per point which is exceptionally high (Poly and VGF are $0.65 and $0.46 respectively and those both share monorail costs). It's odd because gondolas are supposed to be cheap to run and CBR/Pop/AoA have over 5,000 rooms also sharing the costs. Perhaps they're being extra conservative and it will turn out to be less.

That is the primary reason Riviera's dues are so high. 2020 wages are likely also baked in, but the transportation line item is double or more the other resorts.

They are paying the loans they are paying operational and replacement costs. The actually upfront cost is something they can’t explicitly charge.

The Disney Company should be paying the capital costs of building the gondola system - annual dues should not be paying for any loan or pat of the cost to construct the system. Annual dues will pay for operating the gondolas, though.

If they apportion the costs of operating the gondolas the way they do for the boats between Epcot ad DHS, they will divide the total by the number of resort stops. So since the gondola has 3 resort stations, - at Pop Century/Art of Animation, CB & DRR, Member dues at DRR should bear the cost for 1/3 of the operating & maintenance expense. I agree that buses are way more expensive than the gondolas (think of the labor costs) and DRR will have buses to AK & MK. I've been told that the DS merchants generally pay for the DS bus service and of course, each resort helps pay for the Magical Express bus service

Actually, the people who rent rooms at Pop and AOA should be paying for the whole line from Pop to CB BY THEMSELVES, because 99% of the people using it will be POP/AOA. So, How much are they paying for that mile of the line? They should also be paying a share of the costs for the rest of the line, from CB to HS and from CB to Epcot. The people staying at CB should definitely be paying a large part of the cost of the CB to HS line and the CB to Epcot line. The people at Riviera should also be paying a portion of the cost of the to Epcot, to CB and to HS.

There are 2880 rooms at Pop. 2000 rooms at AoA. Caribbean Beach has 2100 rooms. Riviera will have about 300 rooms.

Now, I have heard figures that say that the gondolas cost about $5 million per mile to install, and will be much much cheaper than that to run, maintain and operate every year. That is why Disney put them in. They will be much cheaper than buses in the long run.

Okay, so if the line from POP/AoA to CB is about a mile long, then it should have cost about $5 million to build (and maybe $1 million per year to run), which, as I said, should be being nearly 100% paid for by Pop/AoA. That means, that, with almost 5000 rooms at Pop/AoA, then the cost works out to about $3 per day, per room, for construction costs, and I can't see it costing more than 70 cents per day, per room, to operate and maintain it.

The line from CB to HS is about another mile long, which would cost about $5 million. Then CB to Riviera to Epcot is about 1 1/2 miles long or about $7.5 million to build. If there are about 6 million points being sold at Riviera, then it means that the cost for each point IF RIVIERA IS PAYING FOR THE WHOLE THING by themselves, HS to CB to Riviera to Epcot, then their costs at Riviera would STILL only be a bit over $1 per point, and that would only be for 1 year. Theoretically the price would drop to about 1/5th of that per year to keep it running. But, if you assume the cost of the CB to HS and CB to Epcot is bourne proportionately, with each hotel or resort room that has access paying for its share, then the $5 million for CB to HS and $7.5 million for CB to Epcot is $12.5 million. But divide that by 5000 rooms at POP/Aoa plus 2000 rooms at CB plus 300 rooms from Riviera, or $12.5 million divided by 7300 rooms equals a cost of $1700 per room, per year. Or about $4.70 per day. So, if a room at Riviera costs, say, about 30 points per day, on an average, then THE ACTUAL CONSTRUCTION COSTS, IF SHARED FAIRLY, FOR EACH POINT AT RIVIERA WOULD ONLY BE $4.70 DIVIDED BY 30 POINTS = 16 CENTS PER POINT. And operating costs would be about 1/5th of that, but let's round it up and say BUILDING it (which should only be a cost this year) AND RUNNING IT, together, should only cost about 20 cents per point.

So, how does Disney justify charging $1.34 per point for transportation costs, when the Riviera share of the Gondola cost should only be about 20 cents per point? And, again, that only in the first year. It should drop to about 5 cents per point after the first year.
 
......(snip).........So, how does Disney justify charging $1.34 per point for transportation costs, when the Riviera share of the Gondola cost should only be about 20 cents per point? And, again, that only in the first year. It should drop to about 5 cents per point after the first year.

DRR also has to pay for the bus service to AK & MK and also ME service to and from the airport. Takes a lot of bus drivers to do that and labor is expensive. We don't know how much of the transportation budget is going to bus service vs gondola service.
 
DRR also has to pay for the bus service to AK & MK and also ME service to and from the airport. Takes a lot of bus drivers to do that and labor is expensive. We don't know how much of the transportation budget is going to bus service vs gondola service.

I realize this. However, if most DVC resorts cost about 65 cent to 70 cents per point to run the buses (see the Transportation part of the DVC Membership Dues for other resorts, especially the ones who ONLY have buses), then we have to presume that FULL BUS SERVICE should not cost more than 70 cents per point for Riviera. In fact, it should cost significantly less, because 2 of the main locations, Epcot and Hollywood Studios will have few buses going to them. Now, if we add the 20 cents of ACTUAL FAIR COSTS for the gondolas to the 70 cents for the buses, then Riviera Transportation Costs SHOULD NOT EXCEED ABOUT 90 CENTS PER POINT.

If you ask me, if they are charging anything above that amount, THEN THEY ARE CHEATING.

BLT Transportation costs, which includes the monorail are about 9% of dues. Let's round out the dues and say 9% of $7 or 61 cents. For AKL it is 10% or about 70 cents. How come AKL transportation costs are more than BLT, when BLT has the expensive, inefficient monorail, plus buses to 2 resorts, plus boats? And if transportation costs at BLT are about 65 cents per point, with the expensive monorail and its constant repair and maintenance, then how can Riviera with the gondolas come in at essentially twice as much?

Anyway, I think Disney should justify the DVC costs a little more, and should be held accountable.
 
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Have you considered that the L 14 resorts haven't yet factored the CM raises scheduled for 2020 into the 2019 dues, but DRR has? Lots of labor costs in the bus service. Also, DRR pays for dedicated buses. Monorail resorts share.

Considering that, I don't think the $1.34 is necessarily out of line. We'll have to agree to disagree.
 


Have you considered that the L 14 resorts haven't yet factored the CM raises scheduled for 2020 into the 2019 dues, but DRR has? Lots of labor costs in the bus service. Also, DRR pays for dedicated buses. Monorail resorts share.

Considering that, I don't think the $1.34 is necessarily out of line. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Lets say that the wage increases were even 20% (which they aren't) then you might expect transporation costs of the L14 resorts to go up to .74-.85 which is still well under the $1.34/pt.
 
It is possible DVC is overestimating the dues for transportation since the gondolas are still not operational and they don't know the exact costs. Better to overestimate at first and correct down than underestimate and correct up.
Anyway, if I were a DRR owner, I would question DVC about how the gondola costs are split between resorts.
 
Anyway, if I were a DRR owner, I would question DVC about how the gondola costs are split between resorts.

Darn tootin'.

It isn't fair that Riviera with 300 rooms (okay, let's round it up and count Grand Villas as 7 rooms and 2 bedroom as 4 rooms) should have to pay anything approaching 1/3rd of the cost, on the theory that, 'There are 3 resorts, just divide 3 ways.' This puts an EXCESS, UNJUSTIFIED BURDEN, on the backs of DVC Owners at Riviera, because ACTUAL USAGE will be based on number of people in each room at all the resorts. So, again, with POP/AoA having about 5000 rooms and CB having 2000 rooms, then even if you say that Riviera has 500 rooms, then (5000+2000+500) divided by 500 = 15. So, RIVIERA SHOULD NEVER HAVE TO PAY MORE THAN 15% OF THE COST FOR GONDOLA INSTALLATION AND MAINTENANCE, and that 15% should ONLY apply to the 2 lines of HS to CB and CB to Epcot.

But even that number is not fair. THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE EVERY DAY FROM EVERY RESORT IN DISNEY WORLD WILL BE USING THE GONDOLAS. They WERE NOT just build for the benefit of the people at POP, CB and Riviera. They were built for the benefit of EVERYBODY. So, shouldn't people from EVERY RESORT be contributing to the cost of the Gondolas? Or, shouldn't Disney just be paying the bulk of the cost for it out of their general operating expenses, since it was put in to allow EVERYONE to have the benefit of Epcot to HS (now including Star Wars)?

Am I a rabble rouser? (Perhaps Gadfly is a better term?) I don't mean to be, BUT I JUST WANT TO BE FAIR. I don't even own at Rivera AND I NEVER WILL after what Disney has done to kick owners in the teeth. But, perhaps it is that very heavy handed approach by Disney that makes me question all their other actions, and makes me wonder if they are abusing the poor Riviera owners EVEN MORE, but doing it, in this case, hidden as 'Transportation Costs' in their DVC Membership Fees.
 
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So if we RR owners are paying for and get our own buses, Lord let them come more rapidly than once every 20-25 minutes! I'm not going to get my hopes up, but if we are the only stop, shouldn't they come more frequently?

You aren't buying the busses or controlling their dispatch, you are simply contracting for transportation with Disney Transport. But it means that built into that contract is the cost of the bus drivers, bus maintenance and so forth for your single resort. OKW's transportation cost is 84.43¢ per point, OKW also has dedicated busses with 5 internal bus stops. But OKW is slightly closer to MK and EPCOT by bus than Riviera, so milage is also probably figured into the calculations. And OKW has more rooms to divide the cost.
 
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I read that part of our DVC dues went to pay for the gondola system. Can anyone confirm that or is it just a rumor?

Not clear that you were asking about Riviera, for which the answer is yes. If you own at another DVC resort your dues will not include a charge for the Skyliner because it is not currently designed to service other DVC Resorts, e.g., AKV's transportation costs apply to the buses that service the resort, not the Skyliner. I was informed long ago that transportation costs apply to those transportation systems that service the particular resort on a daily basis, e.g., VGF dues cover its bus, monorail (including to Epcot), and boat use, but not the buses and boats that service BWV.
 
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Does this mean that they're going to turn away the thousands of people who want to go from Hollywood Studios to Epcot on the Gondola, if they are staying at a NON-Gondola Resort? Because they aren't contributing to the cost?

I understand the concept that they pay for their buses and we use their buses sometimes. Also the monorail resorts pay for the monorail and we use the monorail sometimes even when we are not staying there. However the number of people using the gondola is going to be unprecedented. It is going to far exceed the number using the monorail. Is it fair that the entire burden should be shared only by people staying at Gondola resorts?

I do not own at a gondola Resort. I just want to be fair.
 
Does this mean that they're going to turn away the thousands of people who want to go from Hollywood Studios to Epcot on the Gondola, if they are staying at a NON-Gondola Resort? Because they aren't contributing to the cost?

I understand the concept that they pay for their buses and we use their buses sometimes. Also the monorail resorts pay for the monorail and we use the monorail sometimes even when we are not staying there. However the number of people using the gondola is going to be unprecedented. It is going to far exceed the number using the monorail. Is it fair that the entire burden should be shared only by people staying at Gondola resorts?

I do not own at a gondola Resort. I just want to be fair.

WDW itself has contributed to the Gondola system...the building cost was not cheap. And likely, as with the busses, a park ticket will entitle the user to use the WDW Transportation System, and the Gondolas are part of that.

It isn't like Riveria will bear the entire cost of Gondola operations.
 
It is not clear to me if DVC members pay the whole of the transportation costs or not. Let's take SSR and OKW, which are DVC exclusive resorts. Do we pay the full cost for the buses and boats for those resorts? Disney transportation is open to anyone, even people not staying onsite at other resorts and even people not having a ticket (as it's not checked). SSR is a perfect example: people take a SSR bus to go to DS from parks all the time.
Shouldn't Disney subsidize part of the costs?
 
It is not clear to me if DVC members pay the whole of the transportation costs or not. Let's take SSR and OKW, which are DVC exclusive resorts. Do we pay the full cost for the buses and boats for those resorts? Disney transportation is open to anyone, even people not staying onsite at other resorts and even people not having a ticket (as it's not checked). SSR is a perfect example: people take a SSR bus to go to DS from parks all the time.
Shouldn't Disney subsidize part of the costs?

Disney transporation, as it's own division, might actually charge more to resorts than the actual costs to operate. Cool huh? :) (I really don't know but it's possible)
 
It is not clear to me if DVC members pay the whole of the transportation costs or not. Let's take SSR and OKW, which are DVC exclusive resorts. Do we pay the full cost for the buses and boats for those resorts? Disney transportation is open to anyone, even people not staying onsite at other resorts and even people not having a ticket (as it's not checked). SSR is a perfect example: people take a SSR bus to go to DS from parks all the time.
Shouldn't Disney subsidize part of the costs?

They should, and they PROBABLY ARE. But it wouldn't surprise me if they aren't paying anything and it is all on the backs of the DVC Owners. Because Disney is getting more and more squirrly, and the trust factor just isn't there anymore.
 
They should, and they PROBABLY ARE. But it wouldn't surprise me if they aren't paying anything and it is all on the backs of the DVC Owners. Because Disney is getting more and more squirrly, and the trust factor just isn't there anymore.

Yep. And justify not paying with the argument that the majority of users are staying at the hotel. There isn't necessarily any reason that others would use the transporation even if they are allowed as a courtesy. And that its existence is because of the hotel guests and their need for transporation.
 
Off loading costs from hotel and parks to DVC owners is a tried and true method that Disney is perfectly happy to push as far as they can.

Expecting them to disclose how those costs are calculated sounds like a reasonable expectation, but is also never going to happen because they will use the excuse of that being proprietary information.

Owners are basically stuck having to trust DVC with the only option being to sell if you don't. Sad, but true.
 
Actually, the people who rent rooms at Pop and AOA should be paying for the whole line from Pop to CB BY THEMSELVES, because 99% of the people using it will be POP/AOA. So, How much are they paying for that mile of the line? They should also be paying a share of the costs for the rest of the line, from CB to HS and from CB to Epcot. The people staying at CB should definitely be paying a large part of the cost of the CB to HS line and the CB to Epcot line. The people at Riviera should also be paying a portion of the cost of the to Epcot, to CB and to HS.

There are 2880 rooms at Pop. 2000 rooms at AoA. Caribbean Beach has 2100 rooms. Riviera will have about 300 rooms.

Now, I have heard figures that say that the gondolas cost about $5 million per mile to install, and will be much much cheaper than that to run, maintain and operate every year. That is why Disney put them in. They will be much cheaper than buses in the long run.

Okay, so if the line from POP/AoA to CB is about a mile long, then it should have cost about $5 million to build (and maybe $1 million per year to run), which, as I said, should be being nearly 100% paid for by Pop/AoA. That means, that, with almost 5000 rooms at Pop/AoA, then the cost works out to about $3 per day, per room, for construction costs, and I can't see it costing more than 70 cents per day, per room, to operate and maintain it.

The line from CB to HS is about another mile long, which would cost about $5 million. Then CB to Riviera to Epcot is about 1 1/2 miles long or about $7.5 million to build. If there are about 6 million points being sold at Riviera, then it means that the cost for each point IF RIVIERA IS PAYING FOR THE WHOLE THING by themselves, HS to CB to Riviera to Epcot, then their costs at Riviera would STILL only be a bit over $1 per point, and that would only be for 1 year. Theoretically the price would drop to about 1/5th of that per year to keep it running. But, if you assume the cost of the CB to HS and CB to Epcot is bourne proportionately, with each hotel or resort room that has access paying for its share, then the $5 million for CB to HS and $7.5 million for CB to Epcot is $12.5 million. But divide that by 5000 rooms at POP/Aoa plus 2000 rooms at CB plus 300 rooms from Riviera, or $12.5 million divided by 7300 rooms equals a cost of $1700 per room, per year. Or about $4.70 per day. So, if a room at Riviera costs, say, about 30 points per day, on an average, then THE ACTUAL CONSTRUCTION COSTS, IF SHARED FAIRLY, FOR EACH POINT AT RIVIERA WOULD ONLY BE $4.70 DIVIDED BY 30 POINTS = 16 CENTS PER POINT. And operating costs would be about 1/5th of that, but let's round it up and say BUILDING it (which should only be a cost this year) AND RUNNING IT, together, should only cost about 20 cents per point.

So, how does Disney justify charging $1.34 per point for transportation costs, when the Riviera share of the Gondola cost should only be about 20 cents per point? And, again, that only in the first year. It should drop to about 5 cents per point after the first year.
That's assuming the room is occupied 365 days
 
That's assuming the room is occupied 365 days
Yeah, but you know those resorts are busy busy busy. And you know the rooms are booked because, it doesn't matter what day you check in, and how early you check in, you almost never get a room until after 1 or 2 PM and mostly not until 4 PM or so. If the rooms were empty from the night before, this wouldn't be the case. I'd be shocked if they don't run greater than 90% occupancy year round.
 

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