New Future Disneyland Hotel

[Malcon10t]

Any update on what’s going on with them?

Aww, really? I hadn’t heard anything about that one, I just thought it was still progressing. Sheesh, it sounds like it’s gonna be kind of a mess all around there for a while, esp when Star Wars opens and there’s no extra room for anyone to go...

My understanding is the changing atmosphere in the Anaheim political arena. They are on hold thru the November election to see how everything turns out. This all changed with announcements of changes to the subsidies that will be on the ballot.

 

[wowsmom]

It is also on hold now. While we keep discussing the DLR issue, people tend to skip over the 2 other hotels that went on hold. The Anabella has been razed and is a dirt field.

That's interesting. I hadn't heard a single word about the other hotels also being on hold.

While I can understand their frustration that is kinda like moving next to an airport that has been there for decades and complaining about airport noise. Even if there are now more flights today then there were a decade ago...you still CHOOSE to live next to that airport that was there long before you were.

I have zero sympathy.

Exactly! My high school was in an area with no buildings around it for many years, then a developer built a huge neighborhood that was right up against the high school and the people who moved in complained about the noise from the football games and dances and such. Ridiculous!

 

[Nonsuch]

My understanding is the changing atmosphere in the Anaheim political arena. They are on hold thru the November election to see how everything turns out. This all changed with announcements of changes to the subsidies that will be on the ballot.

Anaheim website:

November 6, 2018 Ballot

• Mayor (at-large)
• City Council Vacancies
  Three (3) City Council member seats (Districts 2, 3 & 6).
• Measure J - Referendum Measure approving Development Agreement No. 2016-00001
  Shall Anaheim City Council Ordinance No. 6376, which would approve a Development Agreement and provide a vested right to develop a Four Diamond 580-room, eight-story hotel on property located at 1700 S. Harbor Blvd. during the five-year term of that Development Agreement in accordance with governmental approvals and entitlements granted by the City, be adopted? (Resolution No. 2018-095)
• Measure K - Referendum Measure approving Development Agreement No. 2016-00002
  Shall Anaheim City Council Ordinance No. 6377, which would approve a Development Agreement and provide a vested right to develop a Four Diamond 634-room, eight-story hotel on property located at 1030 W. Katella Ave. during the five-year term of that Development Agreement in accordance with governmental approvals and entitlements granted by the City, be adopted? (Resolution No. 2018-099)
• Measure L - Initiative Ordinance to Increase Minimum Wage Payable by Certain Hospitality Industry Employers
  Shall the initiative ordinance to increase the minimum wage payable by hospitality industry employers located in the Anaheim or Disneyland Resort Specific Plan Zones that have tax rebate agreements with the City, and to require that service charges imposed by such employers be paid entirely to employees, be adopted? (Resolution No. 2018-068)

A few notes about this ballot:

• New mayor, since current mayor has reached term limit
• 3 out of 6 city council members will be elected
• Measure J is for the Anaheim Hotel (former Anaheim Plaza) owned by Wincome Group
• Measure K is for the Westin Anaheim (former Anabella) owned by Wincome Group
• Measure L increases minimum wage at hotels receiving tax rebate (both Wincome hotels and new Disney Hotel)

 

[tarheelalum]

Anaheim website:

• Measure L increases minimum wage at hotels receiving tax rebate (both Wincome hotels and new Disney Hotel)

Is it this specific to the current canceled hotel tax rebate or does it encompass any tax rebates these corporations have received? Disney has received other tax subsidies in the past most recently getting a pass on the gate tax.

 

[BriannaRuth]

That's interesting. I hadn't heard a single word about the other hotels also being on hold.

Exactly! My high school was in an area with no buildings around it for many years, then a developer built a huge neighborhood that was right up against the high school and the people who moved in complained about the noise from the football games and dances and such. Ridiculous!

We have the same situation with my daughters' school! The school is over 100 years old, it was there first and the neighborhood built up around it. Yet a lot of people in the neighborhood want to complain about the amount of traffic in the neighborhood due to the school. Zero sympathy from me as well.

 

[CO2CA]

I don't know the full scope of the facts on this, but I think both parties are being a little ridiculous here. Anaheim rakes in tons of money off Disney so shouldn't really be complaining about tax subsidies that they agreed upon. Disney, on the other hand, should be able to easily build the hotel without the subsidies if we're being honest. However, I really do think Disney is in the right here. Anaheim agreed upon giving a subsidy to 4 diamond AAA properties, Disney put plans in, then Anaheim backed out. The hotel would increase the city revenue by quite a bit, so why not just give them the subsidy.

 

[Malcon10t]

Disney, on the other hand, should be able to easily build the hotel without the subsidies if we're being honest.

Agreed, but then they could build to their discretion, and how they want, and not to Anaheim's requirements. For example, many here are clamoring for a "Value" Disney hotel. Disney could then put up a Value style hotel, probably on the east side near where they were discussing the pedestrian bridge. They wouldn't have to build to a 4 diamond quality, it would be considerably cheaper, prices would be lower (meaning city of Anaheim would get less taxes), but Anaheim council tends to vote against any Disney project that doesn't put enough $$ in Anaheim's pocket.

Right now, they want to court convention/conference attendees. That won't happen with a Value hotel.

 

[Malcon10t]

Is it this specific to the current canceled hotel tax rebate or does it encompass any tax rebates these corporations have received? Disney has received other tax subsidies in the past most recently getting a pass on the gate tax.

It is specific to the hotel tax.

As to the gate tax, it always surprises me when people want to pay more taxes. Currently, Anaheim theme park tickets are not taxed. (WDW tickets are taxed by the state. California does not tax theme park tickets.) People complain enough about the price of tickets. But then they complain Disney gets a pass on the gate tax. Reality is, Disney GUESTS get a pass on the tax. Let's just say that Disney says "Sure, people keep saying we get a pass on the gate tax, so let's accept the gate tax." At WDW it is 6%, same as the extra occupancy tax. Anaheim is 9.5% occupancy tax, so should we use that number? So you buy your 3 day, 1 park ticket for $280, then you add $26.60 taxes to be paid to the city of Anaheim.

Everyone talks about "gate tax". California doesn't tax theme park tickets. But everyone talks about Disneyland getting a "pass" on the gate fee. That is because Anaheim WANTS to tax the tickets now too. They charge occupancy tax on the hotel rooms. It totals out to 17.25%. 7.25% goes to the state, .25% goes to the county of Orange, 9.75% goes to the city of Anaheim. And now people feel we should pay more taxes to the city of Anaheim to buy a ticket. You state Disney got a pass on the gate tax, but reality is the Disney guest got the pass.

If you seriously feel the "gate tax" is something that really should exist, just cut a check yourself to the city of Anaheim for what the taxes should be on your ticket. They already get enough of my funds from hotel occupancy taxes, the extra sales tax funding, etc...

 

[whoever]

It is specific to the hotel tax.

As to the gate tax, it always surprises me when people want to pay more taxes. Currently, Anaheim theme park tickets are not taxed. (WDW tickets are taxed by the state. California does not tax theme park tickets.) People complain enough about the price of tickets. But then they complain Disney gets a pass on the gate tax. Reality is, Disney GUESTS get a pass on the tax. Let's just say that Disney says "Sure, people keep saying we get a pass on the gate tax, so let's accept the gate tax." At WDW it is 6%, same as the extra occupancy tax. Anaheim is 9.5% occupancy tax, so should we use that number? So you buy your 3 day, 1 park ticket for $280, then you add $26.60 taxes to be paid to the city of Anaheim.

Everyone talks about "gate tax". California doesn't tax theme park tickets. But everyone talks about Disneyland getting a "pass" on the gate fee. That is because Anaheim WANTS to tax the tickets now too. They charge occupancy tax on the hotel rooms. It totals out to 17.25%. 7.25% goes to the state, .25% goes to the county of Orange, 9.75% goes to the city of Anaheim. And now people feel we should pay more taxes to the city of Anaheim to buy a ticket. You state Disney got a pass on the gate tax, but reality is the Disney guest got the pass.

If you seriously feel the "gate tax" is something that really should exist, just cut a check yourself to the city of Anaheim for what the taxes should be on your ticket. They already get enough of my funds from hotel occupancy taxes, the extra sales tax funding, etc...

I wish there was an "I LOVE THIS POST" button. So true!!

 

[V.I.N.CENT.]

I have 20 years experience working for local government, and serve as an elected official for the City where I live. Double dipping so to speak. Working for one during the day, and spending most of my free time serving on a City Council. If there really is an anti-sentiment towards Disney on the current council, it will probably change over the future cycles. All cities in California are running a deficit when it comes to maintaining local infrastructure. Property taxes simply don't pay of all of the services residents receive (police/fire/roads/water/etc.). Some candidates may run on an anti-Disney platform because it is popular right now, blaming them for traffic and other perceived drawbacks. When the loss of revenue starts to hit from not allowing improvements, and they probably have good financial projections about how much the new hotels will bring in, Councils will change their mind.

I would think they would encourage an onsite hotel, the traffic generation would be far lower than other locations. Most people who stay on property are probably less likely to drive to other locations.

 

[tarheelalum]

As to the gate tax, it always surprises me when people want to pay more taxes. Currently, Anaheim theme park tickets are not taxed. (WDW tickets are taxed by the state. California does not tax theme park tickets.) People complain enough about the price of tickets. But then they complain Disney gets a pass on the gate tax. Reality is, Disney GUESTS get a pass on the tax. Let's just say that Disney says "Sure, people keep saying we get a pass on the gate tax, so let's accept the gate tax." At WDW it is 6%, same as the extra occupancy tax. Anaheim is 9.5% occupancy tax, so should we use that number? So you buy your 3 day, 1 park ticket for $280, then you add $26.60 taxes to be paid to the city of Anaheim.

Everyone talks about "gate tax". California doesn't tax theme park tickets. But everyone talks about Disneyland getting a "pass" on the gate fee. That is because Anaheim WANTS to tax the tickets now too. They charge occupancy tax on the hotel rooms. It totals out to 17.25%. 7.25% goes to the state, .25% goes to the county of Orange, 9.75% goes to the city of Anaheim. And now people feel we should pay more taxes to the city of Anaheim to buy a ticket. You state Disney got a pass on the gate tax, but reality is the Disney guest got the pass.

If you seriously feel the "gate tax" is something that really should exist, just cut a check yourself to the city of Anaheim for what the taxes should be on your ticket. They already get enough of my funds from hotel occupancy taxes, the extra sales tax funding, etc...

Where exactly did I state I want to pay anyone more money ?? I pay a ton in taxes every year. But I, unlike Disney, don't look for welfare from the city or cry like a baby when I don't get special hand outs.

 

[Malcon10t]

Where exactly did I state I want to pay anyone more money ?? I pay a ton in taxes every year. But I, unlike Disney, don't look for welfare from the city or cry like a baby when I don't get special hand outs.

You've made many comments in the past about the "gate tax". A gate tax (ie a tax on the ticket media) would be paid by you and me. So, if the city of Anaheim opts to add a gate tax (aka sales tax on the park ticket) you and I will be the ones paying this tax. Who do you think would be paying this tax?? When California was looking at this about 10 years, the study they did showed that if they did a 4.25% gate tax on theme parks, theme park attendance would decrease 1.6 million (I think that was the number. I will see if I can find the report.) And to be clear, this is a tax that has never, ever existed. And the only places it would affect would be Disney, Honda Center, and Angel Stadium. But it has never existed. It is a threatened tax. You say they get a "pass", but reality is, it has never existed. It is a tax they would be creating to charge US more.

You look at it as Disney looking for a hand out. I look at it as Anaheim is looking at Disney (Anaheim's deep pocket) to find money to correct errors they have made in their budgeting (example, $590 million unfunded in the pension fund for employees.) Disney represents 40% of the tax revenue for Anaheim. In addition to the tax, Disney pays about $10 million a year for extra emergency responders (police and fire). And this doesn't include the property taxes.

Anaheim wants 4 diamond hotels. They put out "You spend the money to build these 4 diamond, we will refund you 70% of the occupancy taxes for XX number of years." Anaheim already included what they expect the first year to be of $7 million for their budget, so that would estimate Disney's share to be about $16 million. The cost to build the 4 diamond is going to be in the $350 million range. Now, remember, we are only discussing the tax on occupancy. The building will also generate CONSIDERABLY more property taxes. But Disney could just as easily make a "Value" hotel (place it on the eastern side), building could be done for well under 1/4 the price, keep the rates lower ($200-225 night) have a sold out every night hotel, generate less than half the taxes for Anaheim, and while it might give Anaheim about the same tax revenue, they would not be getting the 4 diamond they want to try and attract the business they want. There is a reason convention goers who DON'T go to Disneyland, stay at the Grand. When I travel for business, if I am in Anaheim, my company books me into the Grand or DLH. It is how companies work. I actually have to tell them I prefer the DLH.

Disney did do a few things right. The bond payments for the parking garage are set up that any overage only go towards early payment and cannot simply be put into the general fund. The bond payments are currently about $100 million ahead of schedule. Anaheim wants that money to fix their error in the unfunded pension issue.

 

[chickapin parterre]

Where exactly did I state I want to pay anyone more money ?? I pay a ton in taxes every year. But I, unlike Disney, don't look for welfare from the city or cry like a baby when I don't get special hand outs.

But Disney is not getting a hand out......Anaheim, in need of taxes, sees an underused convention center for generating taxes, so they make a proposal to two different companies that the city will set up the parameters on how they want luxury hotels built, in exchange the two companies will keep the taxes to pay the building bill.....taxes that do not exist now but magically appear because Disney footed the construction bill for something they never would have built in the first place......$800.00 rooms.

 

[CO2CA]

Where exactly did I state I want to pay anyone more money ?? I pay a ton in taxes every year. But I, unlike Disney, don't look for welfare from the city or cry like a baby when I don't get special hand outs.

That's strange, I never posted that. For some reason the quote says my screen name on someone else's message.

 

[gottalovepluto]

Anaheim website:

A few notes about this ballot:

• New mayor, since current mayor has reached term limit
• 3 out of 6 city council members will be elected
• Measure J is for the Anaheim Hotel (former Anaheim Plaza) owned by Wincome Group
• Measure K is for the Westin Anaheim (former Anabella) owned by Wincome Group
• Measure L increases minimum wage at hotels receiving tax rebate (both Wincome hotels and new Disney Hotel)

Woah. I thought those 4 diamond tax breaks were done deals, apparently not! I seem to recall Disney has a similar tax break on their hotel, do we know if that is potentially subject to a similar situation Wincome is facing with this vote?

 

[ExcitedMama]

I was curious about what was going on with the hotels and the measures on the ballot referenced above so I googled. If you want to see them:

https://www.anaheim.net/3350/City-Measures---November-6-2018-Election

As you know most elections have a for and an against argument that goes out to voters. Think about an argument and the likely nemesis, like a democratic proposal to raise taxes and the response from a fiscally conservative group against. Now I don’t live in Anaheim so I have no idea what’s going on there but it’s interesting to me that both of the hotels have arguments against by one woman with no title and no organization. Now maybe this is just premature as the election is months away so maybe there will be more arguments against by the time the materials are ready for printing to voters. Here’s an example:

https://www.anaheim.net/DocumentCenter/View/22489/Referendum_2016-00001_Argument-Against

If nothing changes it doesn’t sound like much opposition against. It’s just a misplaced understanding about subsidies really. Nothing about traffic or the environment or the type of arguments that usually get in the way of big developments.

 

[tarheelalum]

But Disney is not getting a hand out......Anaheim, in need of taxes, sees an underused convention center for generating taxes, so they make a proposal to two different companies that the city will set up the parameters on how they want luxury hotels built, in exchange the two companies will keep the taxes to pay the building bill.....taxes that do not exist now but magically appear because Disney footed the construction bill for something they never would have built in the first place......$800.00 rooms.

They diffenately are not getting anything on this deal but Disney has gotten massive hand outs in the past which have likely resulted in billions of dollars in free money from the city. Just like major like sports teams, Disney should have to pay it's own way. No more hand outs like the Mickey and Friends parking deck which was the biggest example of corporate welfare I've ever seen. Disney has probably made billions of dollars and kept every penny of it and has never repaid the city for the construction of that parking deck that the city paid for and sold to Disney for 1 DOLLAR.

I see no problem in giving assistance to those who cannot do for themselves or helping a small business with low interests loans. But I have a big problem when people or corporations game the system. Disney has clearly gamed the system in its favor over the years with its influence on prior city councils. It's clear others here feel that Disney is the victim of the city and they should give Disney tax breaks and incentives because Disney is nothing but wonderful for the city.

I disagree but in all honesty it doesn't matter what I or anyone else on this forum thinks about it. I'm not a resident of Anaheim nor do I think many of the people on this forum are to my knowledge. So we don't get to vote on any of it. But in time we'll see what happens, for better or worse.

 

[LizzyS]

It is not about being "known" for conventions...they are literally being passed up by millions of dollars of conventions due to lack of accommodations. They had a very underutilized (and under monetized) convention center facility...which is why they created the incentive. Convention business can bring in big bucks for a city.

I personally have several clients that will pass up Anaheim for their conventions and conferences due to lack of business level accommodations...so it is not just a theory.




?? Some of the largest conventions in the US are held annually in Vegas and know for that destination.


I am in the events business, and also lived and worked in Vegas...while your public perception may be correct, the hotels and resorts almost everywhere in the US live and thrive on the millions in convention and meeting business more so than the pleasure traveler. Most of the priorities we walk into have a $250K food and beverage minimum...and that does not include room rate spend. They will bump pleasure patrons in a heartbeat to sell a convention....heck two weeks ago we toured a property with a $500k F/B minimum for a two day meeting. It is big business for destination properties.

Why do you think you cannot guarantee a King room at the Grand?...they hold them back for meetings and conventions cuz that is what the business traveler expects and they can book meetings as late as only a few weeks out...then and only then will they release them for resort patrons if they are not held for the events room blocks. Those patrons are more valuable than a park visitor sorry to say.

My comment was wholly in response to a post previous to mine. I understand the value of convention business (I do have a business degree, ftr).

 

[chickapin parterre]

They diffident are not getting anything on this deal but ......

I disagree but in all honesty it doesn't matter what I or anyone else on this forum thinks about it. I'm not a resident of Anaheim nor do I think many of the people on this forum are to my knowledge. So we don't get to vote on any of it. But in time we'll see what happens, for better or worse.

....but it is important that folks here flesh out the issues, it is part of the democracy that we function in, always discuss matters that direct your daily lives, whether or not you have the vote, disabled family members, children in strollers, cell phones.....cutting in line. Being aware of issues is important so that you can understand what waits ahead.....become involved in critical thinking. Having moved to Arizona, on the border...I am very disappointed in my lack of participation when l lived in Oregon about the border issue. It is a real problem that the other 46 states do not have a grasp on border issues and wish not to have forums about the issues facing the four border states. Discussing here taxes, contracts and buried gas tanks allows us to formulate to what....honestly does matter to all of us.

 

[tarheelalum]

....but it is important that folks here flesh out the issues, it is part of the democracy that we function in, always discuss matters that direct your daily lives, whether or not you have the vote, disabled family members, children in strollers, cell phones.....cutting in line. Being aware of issues is important so that you can understand what waits ahead.....become involved in critical thinking. Having moved to Arizona, on the border...I am very disappointed in my lack of participation when l lived in Oregon about the border issue. It is a real problem that the other 46 states do not have a grasp on border issues and wish not to have forums about the issues facing the four border states. Discussing here taxes, contracts and buried gas tanks allows us to formulate to what....honestly does matter to all of us.

I can appreciate your view but I enjoy spending my time most where I can effect change and nobody here is going to change anyone's mind on these issues concerning Disney.

And I agree that the border and illegal immigration is an extremely important issue. I've lived in southern California for most of my adult life and now live in southern Arizona. I've lived with it for many years but its probably best not discussed in this forum. It's not very Disney.