Otto Warmbier

Funny, I think these are examples of me realizing I have no desire to run with the big dogs and explore totalitarian regimes and the like. Instead preferring to watch those political issues from afar on my "porch" and confine myself to directly sniffing my nose only into the petty partisan gamesmanship going on here in the US for the last however many years.

Understandable! I did my masters on feminism in Iran, so that research started a desire to visit one day. And unlike NK, I've met several people from Iran which further sparks my interest. I'd be fascinated to meet someone who lived in NK, but I'm not sure it'd make me want to go there ;)
 
Understandable! I did my masters on feminism in Iran, so that research started a desire to visit one day. And unlike NK, I've met several people from Iran which further sparks my interest. I'd be fascinated to meet someone who lived in NK, but I'm not sure it'd make me want to go there ;)

I have a few Iranian friends who would either like to see Iran one day, or are dealing with elderly parents who want to visit again after fleeing when they were young, or have elderly parents who fled and have made their children promise they will never take the chance to go back there. The idea of needing to pick up your life and flee to another country catches my interest, I think because I realize all branches of my family tree in every direction do not have very long roots here in the US and I have vague accounts of ancestors who needed to flee from various countries around the globe to start new lives in America.
 
But why return him at all? If they don't care about him, don't care about the U.S., don't care about relations with the U.S. Why didn't they just kill him or let him die? Sending him back was almost an act of compassion to let his parents say goodbye, but they whole ordeal was brutal and horrific. Why torture that young man only to return him home? I don't think they sent him home to be compassionate, there was another reason I think. Makes no sense to me.
 
But why return him at all? If they don't care about him, don't care about the U.S., don't care about relations with the U.S. Why didn't they just kill him or let him die? Sending him back was almost an act of compassion to let his parents say goodbye, but they whole ordeal was brutal and horrific. Why torture that young man only to return him home? I don't think they sent him home to be compassionate, there was another reason I think. Makes no sense to me.
Why do some countries have elections with only one candidate? It's a sham. They want to claim they are compassionate.
 


But why return him at all? If they don't care about him, don't care about the U.S., don't care about relations with the U.S. Why didn't they just kill him or let him die? Sending him back was almost an act of compassion to let his parents say goodbye, but they whole ordeal was brutal and horrific. Why torture that young man only to return him home? I don't think they sent him home to be compassionate, there was another reason I think. Makes no sense to me.

Agree, no compassion. Not one sliver.

IMHO, it is along the lines of he is no longer of use to us, and we don't want to care for him so here you go. He didn't die here so his blood isn't on our hands. (Which is a crock, they are responsible for his death.)
 
The heat is on them right now and they wanted to have one less issue to squabble about with the U.S.

They didn't/don't care about him or his parents. They probably think it's funny.
 


The new president of South Korea is visiting the White House next week to discuss North Korea.
 
I have a few Iranian friends who would either like to see Iran one day, or are dealing with elderly parents who want to visit again after fleeing when they were young, or have elderly parents who fled and have made their children promise they will never take the chance to go back there. The idea of needing to pick up your life and flee to another country catches my interest, I think because I realize all branches of my family tree in every direction do not have very long roots here in the US and I have vague accounts of ancestors who needed to flee from various countries around the globe to start new lives in America.

My DD#2's MIL is from Cambodia. Her FIL, MIL, 2 BIL, and SIL came over in the early 1990s, thanks to some very nice people. SoIL and his little sister were born in Washington.

Anyways, the MIL wants SoIL and DD to go back to Cambodia with her for a visit. She wants to show them where they lived, and meet family left behind.
 
Re: "tour company allowed to take our citizens into a country such as NK". Who could disallow what some company in another country does?

There is also this little thing called freedom. We are free to make whatever decisions we want regarding where we travel.

Unless you want to make a US law that bans travel to NK, I don't see how it could be done. Even if we do make such a law, I'm not sure how it would work because you'd have to be on foreign soil in order to do it and the US has no jurisdiction on foreign soil. I suppose they could arrest you if you attempt to return.

What were the mechanisms in place that kept US citizens from traveling to Cuba?

I understand the whole freedom thing, I really do. As I said, I have no idea how to implement that kind of restriction, but if a van in travel was in place perhaps the pressure on the US to use whatever means possible to bring citizens home would be a little reduced.

I'm not able to realize a solution, but I can recognize the problem. Would the promise that Americans who break the restriction and are taken prisoner are on their own make travel in NK less attractive? I don't know, but the way things stand now places our government in an untenable position.

I also think that if China wants to be our new best business friend they should be pressured to place sanctions on tour groups who take americans into nk. They are not bound by any freedoms so I would find it a bit difficult to accept that China finally found freedom of commerce.
 
But why return him at all? If they don't care about him, don't care about the U.S., don't care about relations with the U.S. Why didn't they just kill him or let him die? Sending him back was almost an act of compassion to let his parents say goodbye, but they whole ordeal was brutal and horrific. Why torture that young man only to return him home? I don't think they sent him home to be compassionate, there was another reason I think. Makes no sense to me.

I believe that NK cared very much about his young man and the impact his return in that condition would have on US citizens. Had he passed away there who woudl have known what happened to him? Send him home in the condition he was in and the horror is real, and I believe the message more profound. I strongly believe that sending one of our own home in such a deplorable condition was deliberate.
 
So tragic. I can't even imagine what Otto went through :(

I think our public school system does a terrible job of teaching about countries and their political systems outside the US. I know my adult children would have a difficult time describing a totalitarian state or the Korean War. Young adults don't have full understanding of why these travel warnings aren't an overreaction.
 
So tragic. I can't even imagine what Otto went through :(

I think our public school system does a terrible job of teaching about countries and their political systems outside the US. I know my adult children would have a difficult time describing a totalitarian state or the Korean War. Young adults don't have full understanding of why these travel warnings aren't an overreaction.

I've worked with a bunch of South Koreans over the years. Some were American born or raised, but some were Korean expats or short-term workers. They certainly have a good understanding of North Korea, but for the most part they think of the North as a place to ridicule. However, I don't think any of them have less than a clear understanding about how bad it is in North Korea. One of my managers was going over a book of people with his family name. I asked about what happened to members of the group who ended up in North Korea, and he showed me parts of the book that just stopped. He said that if there's ever any reunification, they'll probably have a newer version that's updated with all the gaps.

Heck - even South Korea was a dictatorship up until the late 80s. That kind of changed as they prepared for the 1988 Summer Olympics.
 
It's completely in their right to say no, but it would be useful to discover what the NK's did. But I'm sure this ordeal is painful enough and they don't want gritty details. :sad1:

I also heard that they refused an autopsy. If the family can survive this tragedy they are doing well. I just was hoping there would be more info/clues on what happened! Praying for them.
 
I also heard that they refused an autopsy. If the family can survive this tragedy they are doing well. I just was hoping there would be more info/clues on what happened! Praying for them.

Agree. I also learned their Jewish faith was likely big factor in refusing autopsy. Understandably so.

I've read on newsfeed chatter the criticism they are getting over this. :sad2:Ugh, they have been through enough. It's their son. Let them handle this they way they see fit.
 
Agree. I also learned their Jewish faith was likely big factor in refusing autopsy. Understandably so.

I've read on newsfeed chatter the criticism they are getting over this. :sad2:Ugh, they have been through enough. It's their son. Let them handle this they way they see fit.

I am so sorry that this family is dealing with criticism. AS a parent I would not want to know the full picture of what my child endured and what horrors I was powerless to stop, so I doubt I could authorize an autopsy either. I have to ask who would want to be scrutinized under these circumstances, and if those who are critical could stand up under a microscope? I know I could not, and hope I never place pressure on anyone who must.
 
So true. I was just reading the story about a young woman who escaped NK when she was 17.

Here's what she says at the end. Something we should all probably keep in mind:

"In South Korea, Lee also learnt about freedom. “Breathing in South Korea, even though the life here is not easy, makes me so happy. I feel that sitting in a coffee shop, having a cup of tea and looking out of the window at the blue sky — this is happiness. Truly happiness. I could never have this moment when I was living in North Korea for 17 years and when I was hiding in China for 10 years. I don’t think many people, when they are having a cup of tea, go: ‘That’s freedom. It’s the joy of life.’ But me, I have that.” For the first time in two hours, she laughs."

https://www.ft.com/content/6dc2c6c2-e6f9-11e6-893c-082c54a7f539

I read an amazing article about the work in South Korea with North Korean refugees. One of the "milestones" they use as they are helping the North Koreans acclimate is when they can identify their favorite color. Literally just the concept of being able to think for yourself about what color you like best is something that they haven't experienced and need to be trained to do.

If this case makes you interested in helping those who have managed to escape from North Korea, this is a good group to check out: http://www.libertyinnorthkorea.org/

Also, the book Escape from Camp 14 is fascinating and harrowing. In full disclosure, the general consensus is that the story isn't totally accurate, but that the overall arc is probably a good representation of the subject's life.
 
Agree. I also learned their Jewish faith was likely big factor in refusing autopsy. Understandably so.

I've read on newsfeed chatter the criticism they are getting over this. :sad2:Ugh, they have been through enough. It's their son. Let them handle this they way they see fit.

I appreciate that but this situation is bigger than just that one family. This is touching all of us.
 
I appreciate that but this situation is bigger than just that one family. This is touching all of us.

Yeah, but there is also this little thing called freedom. We are free to make whatever decisions we want regarding our loved ones bodies when they die.
 

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