Riviera Sales by the numbers (vs CCV) for 2019 - (December added 1/16/2020)

[ELMC]

The whole purpose of my comment was about someone saying they thought RIV had the best location for the Epcot/HS parks which I am stating is false and a big portion of that is being tied to a moderate resort.

The topic being discussed is a matter of opinion so I'm not sure how you can say that one position is true and someone else's is false. You're certainly entitled to disagree, but please don't mistake that with being absolutely correct. Each person's truth is personal to them. While I may not agree with it, I can see how one would think that RIV is a better location for Epcot/DHS than BWV.

 

[ELMC]

You realize with BWV the longest walk to the HS Skyliner is 1/2 mile and the longest walk at RIV to the Skyliner is 1/5 mile. That is a 3/10ths of a mile extra to just walk to HS than ride the Skyliner. Which by the way has an exchange at CBR where all RIV, CBR, AOA, and POP all load to go to HS.

Untrue. It is 8/10ths of a mile from the lobby to the tapstiles. Source: Google Maps.

 

[sethschroeder]

I must have misunderstood then - I thought you meant that gazing upon a lesser resort, even separated by a lake, from a deluxe resort balcony would be offensive to you!

That was not the intent. It's not being offensive it's about the value in which it adds in comparison to other resorts and their views.

You didn't he was quite clear.

That it's offensive to be next to moderate? When did I say that? If you can't agree being next to Poly constitutes a higher price than being next to CBR I am not sure what to say to that.

Would you pay as much for GFV if it was across Coronado Springs? Another beautiful moderate resort? But had a 15 min skyliner to MK?

Untrue. It is 8/10ths of a mile from the lobby to the tapstiles. Source: Google Maps.

I was taking measurements through satellite imagery (you can click your path). I was also comparing from the furthest guest location to the skyliner at HS. Flip side I was taking the same method to Riviera and the far side of the resort.

We can do the Google maps though to the skyliner and call it 3/4 of a mile from Google Maps from guest rooms. Using that puts Riviera at 1/4 of a mile then from the far end of the resort.

So 1/2 mile to walk difference. Unknown extra distance based on location of elevators and layout of Riveria so there is an error either shorter or longer.

 

[ELMC]

That was not the intent. It's not being offensive it's about the value in which it adds in comparison to other resorts and their views.



That it's offensive to be next to moderate? When did I say that? If you can't agree being next to Poly constitutes a higher price than being next to CBR I am not sure what to say to that.

Would you pay as much for GFV if it was across Coronado Springs? Another beautiful moderate resort? But had a 15 min skyliner to MK?



I was taking measurements through satellite imagery (you can click your path). I was also comparing from the furthest guest location to the skyliner at HS. Flip side I was taking the same method to Riviera and the far side of the resort.

We can do the Google maps though to the skyliner and call it 3/4 of a mile from Google Maps from guest rooms. Using that puts Riviera at 1/4 of a mile then from the far end of the resort.

So 1/2 mile to walk difference. Unknown extra distance based on location of elevators and layout of Riveria so there is an error either shorter or longer.

I think you have represented your position well. However, you are debating in terms of value, perception, convenience - all things that vary by the person. You think overlooking CBR is a detriment. I think it is better than 60% of the room views at the Poly. You think the walk isn't that big of a deal. I can see in your tag that you have young kids. Wait until they're out of the stroller and then ask them to walk 8/10ths of a mile after a long park day. So with walking out of the equation which one is more convenient? Who's to say really?

Neither of us is right, but we believe what we believe. But I can't expect you to place an additional value on RIV because of certain factors just as it is not fair for you to expect others to devalue the resort simply because you are not fond of its location or room views. That's all I'm trying to say.

 

[Soap_1984]

Well I would say that, outside of discussions with owners of riviera, I've never heard anyone discuss a location being good simply because of a transportation system; the skyliner isn't a portal. They built a transportation system to make up for the fact that the location is not close to any Park. Proximity to parks is not really a debatable point. The fact that they built the skyliner is proof disney knew it was not a good location.

I don't think it's fair to compare the location to any of the MK resorts or even to the epcot resorts There are multiple ways to get to MK from these resorts and epcot has monorail and bus.

I don't hear a ton of chatter about how great a location CBR and pop century are now that they have the skyliner. It didn't make those resorts deluxe in disneys mind so I'm certain it is the quality of the resort itself that is commanding the premium.

 

[ELMC]

Well I would say that, outside of discussions with owners of riviera, I've never heard anyone discuss a location being good simply because of a transportation system; the skyliner isn't a portal. They built a transportation system to make up for the fact that the location is not close to any Park. Proximity to parks is not really a debatable point. The fact that they built the skyliner is proof disney knew it was not a good location.

I don't think it's fair to compare the location to any of the MK resorts or even to the epcot resorts There are multiple ways to get to MK from these resorts and epcot has monorail and bus.

I don't hear a ton of chatter about how great a location CBR and pop century are now that they have the skyliner. It didn't make those resorts deluxe in disneys mind so I'm certain it is the quality of the resort itself that is commanding the premium.

I'm not sure I share your conclusions as to what constitutes proof, but I would agree that it might not be fair to compare MK resorts and Epcot resorts when talking about getting from one to the other. If you're at the RIV your only choice to get to MK is a bus. If you're at the GF and you want to take the monorail to Epcot then you need at least half an hour. Personally I would rather have a lobotomy than take the monorail from any MK resort to Epcot. As far as proximity...RIV is actually extremely close to both DHS and Epcot. It's not walkable, however. Is that what you mean when you refer to proximity?

 

[Sandisw]

I think you have represented your position well. However, you are debating in terms of value, perception, convenience - all things that vary by the person. You think overlooking CBR is a detriment. I think it is better than 60% of the room views at the Poly. You think the walk isn't that big of a deal. I can see in your tag that you have young kids. Wait until they're out of the stroller and then ask them to walk 8/10ths of a mile after a long park day. So with walking out of the equation which one is more convenient? Who's to say really?

Neither of us is right, but we believe what we believe. But I can't expect you to place an additional value on RIV because of certain factors just as it is not fair for you to expect others to devalue the resort simply because you are not fond of its location or room views. That's all I'm trying to say.

All such really good points, Everyone’s situation is unique and over time, things change, I love being able to walk to the parks. But I have gone with a few friends lately who could not do the walk due to health issues and we had to take the boats,

Every resort has its own characteristics and whether or not it’s a plus all depends on the needs of the group.

 

[Soap_1984]

I'm not sure I share your conclusions as to what constitutes proof, but I would agree that it might not be fair to compare MK resorts and Epcot resorts when talking about getting from one to the other. If you're at the RIV your only choice to get to MK is a bus. If you're at the GF and you want to take the monorail to Epcot then you need at least half an hour. Personally I would rather have a lobotomy than take the monorail from any MK resort to Epcot. As far as proximity...RIV is actually extremely close to both DHS and Epcot. It's not walkable, however. Is that what you mean when you refer to proximity?

Proximity is how close physically is the resort to a park or parks, thats all. Similar to real estate. If I'm selling a house in downtown of a major city the exact same house costs less outside the city. The house outside the city can come with a helicopter but that doesn't mean it's a better location than the house downtown.

I will say Riv should command a premium because the transport system is/seems good, but that has nothing to do with location. If you're in poly you can walk to ttc and be at epcot in 20 minutes if you're in a dvc building. Getting to epcot is not a huge problem from the MK resorts but they aren't sold as being close to epcot they are MK resorts. my biggest problem with epcot monorail is I'd much rather land at international gateway than the front of the park so that is a plus for the skyliner.

Anyway this is where it does become more about opinion. If I'm doing a split stay to be close to magic kingdom and then epcot, I'm probably not choosing Riv for the epcot portion but that's just me. I will try riv at some point and perhaps I'll change my tune, but I enjoy walking and there is just no chance I'm getting stuck hanging in the air on my way to dinner at epcot if I'm walking from beach club.

 

[skier_pete]

I realize it's just opinion but it's hard to imagine a lot of folks preferring Riviera to BCV and BWV all things being equal.

But the fact is, all things aren't equal. BCV and BWV cost a lot more direct per point (and resale) and have a fairly short lifespan. (now down to 21 years, yes the lease runs out Jan 2042, but you won't get 2042 UY points). Riviera is less expensive direct (and likely resale due to restrictions) and has a much longer lifetime (50 years), though it's going to cost you more per night due to point inflation. Not that I'm a great defender of Rivieras resale rules, but I bet 15 years from now that Rviera contracts will be selling for a lot more than a Boardwalk contract with 5 years on it - even with the restrictions. So even if you are thinking "I may need to sell someday" you STILL might be better off with Riviera than Boardwalk.

 

[pineapplepalms]

I will say Riv should command a premium because the transport system is/seems good, but that has nothing to do with location. If you're in poly you can walk to ttc and be at epcot in 20 minutes if you're in a dvc building.

I'm a bit confused about this... doesn't the ability to get from Poly to Epcot via TTC rely on a transportation system (monorail)? Also, the MK resorts are viewed as premium because of ability to monorail/boat to MK, which are also forms of transportation. The Skyliner is just a different form of transportation than the monorail and gets you to different parks.

 

[ELMC]

Proximity is how close physically is the resort to a park or parks, thats all.

Anyway this is where it does become more about opinion. If I'm doing a split stay to be close to magic kingdom and then epcot, I'm probably not choosing Riv for the epcot portion but that's just me. I will try riv at some point and perhaps I'll change my tune, but I enjoy walking and there is just no chance I'm getting stuck hanging in the air on my way to dinner at epcot if I'm walking from beach club.

Not to nitpick, but in that case your original argument regarding Riviera's proximity to the parks doesn't really hold up. Looking at a map it is similar to BCV and BWV in physical distance to the parks. I'll grant you that the access is not as good, but if you're talking distance, they're about the same.

That said, I'm with you in that I'm all about the guarantees. I choose BLT over VGF and PVB every time because when I leave the MK, I know exactly how long it is going to take me to get home. No chance of a monorail failure or a huge line for the boats or anything. So like you I am also choosing BCV or BWV over RIV.

 

[DougEMG]

Not to nitpick, but in that case your original argument regarding Riviera's proximity to the parks doesn't really hold up. Looking at a map it is similar to BCV and BWV in physical distance to the parks. I'll grant you that the access is not as good, but if you're talking distance, they're about the same.

That said, I'm with you in that I'm all about the guarantees. I choose BLT over VGF and PVB every time because when I leave the MK, I know exactly how long it is going to take me to get home. No chance of a monorail failure or a huge line for the boats or anything. So like you I am also choosing BCV or BWV over RIV.

My preference is a BLT and BWV/BCV split stay. Can then walk to 3 parks without having to worry about anything breaking down, running late or not having enough room.

I do occasionally stay at the VGF cause I like the resort a lot, just not a fan of the point chart though so I need to overcome my frugal nature whenever I stay there. Whereas the POLY does nothing for me, nor does CCR/BRV. With RIV I will probably give it a try one day, but with its high point chart it will probably never be more than an occasional visit.

My BWV point will last more than long enough for my personal use, but I could be tempted to buy resale at RIV during the next recession (assuming prices drop significantly) just so that I have an EPCOT resort for my daughter once my BWV points expire.

 

[Soap_1984]

Not to nitpick, but in that case your original argument regarding Riviera's proximity to the parks doesn't really hold up. Looking at a map it is similar to BCV and BWV in physical distance to the parks. I'll grant you that the access is not as good, but if you're talking distance, they're about the same.

That said, I'm with you in that I'm all about the guarantees. I choose BLT over VGF and PVB every time because when I leave the MK, I know exactly how long it is going to take me to get home. No chance of a monorail failure or a huge line for the boats or anything. So like you I am also choosing BCV or BWV over RIV.

Fair enough I suppose it is a lot closer from BCV and BWV to the entrance/international gateway. Also if you look at the map on the app it is much further away from Hollywood studios than bcv and BWV which actually surprised me as I thought it would be the other way around for some reason.

Maybe it doesn't matter and it's more about perception, it just seems the way they are marketing it does make it seem like it's right next to epcot and DHS and is a little misleading.

I really want to go check riv out when I'm there in may and try the skyliner.

 

[sethschroeder]

Not to nitpick, but in that case your original argument regarding Riviera's proximity to the parks doesn't really hold up. Looking at a map it is similar to BCV and BWV in physical distance to the parks. I'll grant you that the access is not as good, but if you're talking distance, they're about the same.

That said, I'm with you in that I'm all about the guarantees. I choose BLT over VGF and PVB every time because when I leave the MK, I know exactly how long it is going to take me to get home. No chance of a monorail failure or a huge line for the boats or anything. So like you I am also choosing BCV or BWV over RIV.

I mean its not and thats a fact. It not an opinion that Riviera is farther from both parks. Boardwalk's convention center by example is on the literal line between the IG and HS gates (you can't get closer to the duo of parks).

The thing you need to remember also is that BWV/BCV has the variety of options to get to the parks. Just like the MK resorts have both Monorail and Boat/Walking.

Its why I keep saying RIV is like the Wilderness area which has the Boat as the only option to MK. They are very close but not adjacent. The resorts that are adjacent to parks are BW, BC, GF, POLY, BLT, Cont. All other parks can be close to parks but they are not adjacent to the parks.

If you consider RIV to be adjacent to the parks I guess CBR is as well and should be seeing AKL rates based on it actually being more central than RIV to the two parks and not requiring a connection to either park.

Riviera has a bunch of things going for it. New resort, fancy finishings, amazing rooftop, great new restaurants, new room type, and new transportation type. It just is not on the same level as the other park adjacent Deluxe resorts (which is fine other things can make up for that).

 

[ELMC]

I mean its not and thats a fact. It not an opinion that Riviera is farther from both parks. Boardwalk's convention center by example is on the literal line between the IG and HS gates (you can't get closer to the duo of parks).

The thing you need to remember also is that BWV/BCV has the variety of options to get to the parks. Just like the MK resorts have both Monorail and Boat/Walking.

Its why I keep saying RIV is like the Wilderness area which has the Boat as the only option to MK. They are very close but not adjacent. The resorts that are adjacent to parks are BW, BC, GF, POLY, BLT, Cont. All other parks can be close to parks but they are not adjacent to the parks.

If you consider RIV to be adjacent to the parks I guess CBR is as well and should be seeing AKL rates based on it actually being more central than RIV to the two parks and not requiring a connection to either park.

Riviera has a bunch of things going for it. New resort, fancy finishings, amazing rooftop, great new restaurants, new room type, and new transportation type. It just is not on the same level as the other park adjacent Deluxe resorts (which is fine other things can make up for that).

Yes, yes, you are correct. About everything. Especially your judgments about a resort that hasn't even opened to the public yet. I hate to break it to you, but I think you will find that there are a bunch of people who think that the Riviera will be nicer than Beach Club or Boardwalk. And that's their right. You keep on stating your opinion like it's a fact, but really it's just your opinion.

I'm all for honest debate but I can't hit a moving target. You're contradicting statements that I didn't even make. Let's just agree to disagree on this one and move on.

 

[sethschroeder]

Yes, yes, you are correct. About everything. Especially your judgments about a resort that hasn't even opened to the public yet. I hate to break it to you, but I think you will find that there are a bunch of people who think that the Riviera will be nicer than Beach Club or Boardwalk. And that's their right. You keep on stating your opinion like it's a fact, but really it's just your opinion.

I'm all for honest debate but I can't hit a moving target. You're contradicting statements that I didn't even make. Let's just agree to disagree on this one and move on.

Moving target? This was about the location the whole time. Nothing has change from that this whole time.

Where did I say BWV or BCV was nicer? Or that a large number of people are not going to prefer RIV? Or that RIV has a more attractive direct contract with DVC right now as its a 50 year contract compared to the shorter 22 year at the other Epcot resorts? Or that direct pricing is lower and has better incentives?

My comments have been on the topic of RIV supposedly having a better location for the Epcot area than BWV/BCV. My example of the Wilderness area being like RIV is not some huge slight of RIV. There are a ton of people on these boards that prefer WL/CC to all the other MK resorts because of the theming, resort feel, and whole host of other reasons (and they don't even have a Skyliner there). I don't see people trying to claim WL is in the same category as far as location as GF/POLY/BLT and that is fine.

I am not sure how stating that RIV is farther away from the parks than BWV/BCV and has less options to get to the park is somehow ground breaking news.

Not sure we can convince each other because like I said at the start I can't see how anyone can think RIV is a better location. Let me just throw this out there. If Wilderness got a Skyliner tomorrow would they consider it a better location than BLT? Or even Poly/GF if they got a walking bridge built?

 

[Sandisw]

Moving target? This was about the location the whole time. Nothing has change from that this whole time.

Where did I say BWV or BCV was nicer? Or that a large number of people are not going to prefer RIV? Or that RIV has a more attractive direct contract with DVC right now as its a 50 year contract compared to the shorter 22 year at the other Epcot resorts? Or that direct pricing is lower and has better incentives?

My comments have been on the topic of RIV supposedly having a better location for the Epcot area than BWV/BCV. My example of the Wilderness area being like RIV is not some huge slight of RIV. There are a ton of people on these boards that prefer WL/CC to all the other MK resorts because of the theming, resort feel, and whole host of other reasons (and they don't even have a Skyliner there). I don't see people trying to claim WL is in the same category as far as location as GF/POLY/BLT and that is fine.

I am not sure how stating that RIV is farther away from the parks than BWV/BCV and has less options to get to the park is somehow ground breaking news.

Not sure we can convince each other because like I said at the start I can't see how anyone can think RIV is a better location. Let me just throw this out there. If Wilderness got a Skyliner tomorrow would they consider it a better location than BLT? Or even Poly/GF if they got a walking bridge built?

Isn’t the word a better location, in itself, an opinion? What you see as better, others may not.. Walking to the parks is nice for some, but immaterial to others.

The lower points charts will help you stretch your points, but may not be enough to consider a resort a better location,

And, yes, there will be some that think WL would be a better location to stay with a Skyliner than Poly or Grand...but if they do, it’s because of opnion.

 

[sethschroeder]

The lower points charts will help you stretch your points, but may not be enough to consider a resort a better location,

I think this points out the difference. I would consider point charts, amenities of the resort itself, and quality of the touches to be about the overall resort. It would not be part of the location.

Examples about the location would be, what's within walking distance (BLT to MK or SSR to DS), what's within view (GFV to MK or BCV Beach to fireworks), and are there multiple options for transportation (Boat/Walk for BWV and Boat/Monorail for Poly). I also consider the Disney pricing expectation for the area. Example GF/Poly vs AK (while some love the AK grounds because of the savanah amenity).

What you see as better, others may not.. Walking to the parks is nice for some, but immaterial to others.

See while you may value the location less the actual location is still better though. If I say I have no issues taking the subway 1 stop to be at Times Square that's fine. It does not however make it a better location than the condos 1 block south with partial views of Time Square.

On the flip side someone may have a terrible fear of heights and never want to go on the Skyliner. That doesn't negate that RIV is still attached to Epcot and HS. It's a personal choice to not value that when deciding on the best overall resort for you but RIV is still attached to the two parks.

 

[Sandisw]

I think this points out the difference. I would consider point charts, amenities of the resort itself, and quality of the touches to be about the overall resort. It would not be part of the location.

Examples about the location would be, what's within walking distance (BLT to MK or SSR to DS), what's within view (GFV to MK or BCV Beach to fireworks), and are there multiple options for transportation (Boat/Walk for BWV and Boat/Monorail for Poly). I also consider the Disney pricing expectation for the area. Example GF/Poly vs AK (while some love the AK grounds because of the savanah amenity).



See while you may value the location less the actual location is still better though. If I say I have no issues taking the subway 1 stop to be at Times Square that's fine. It does not however make it a better location than the condos 1 block south with partial views of Time Square.

On the flip side someone may have a terrible fear of heights and never want to go on the Skyliner. That doesn't negate that RIV is still attached to Epcot and HS. It's a personal choice to not value that when deciding on the best overall resort for you but RIV is still attached to the two parks.

You are right, We have different understandings and use of the word better, I guess it comes down to semantics and words, Yes, BLT, VGF, and Poly are closer to MK, and they are marketed as being worth the extra money to stay there, because you can get to MK more Quickly.

Its that better? Sure is for people whose goal is MK. Is it a better location for people who want to go to Disney Springs or Epcot? Nope.

RIvera is located about the same distance from Epcot as BWV or BCV, To me, it’s splitting hairs to say it’s not as good of a location as those. It would be like saying that Poly is not as good as BLT or VGF because It’s slightly farther than those two,

But, if someone is not walking to the parks, one of the biggest aspects of BCV and BWV, what makes those locations better? Because one can?

If that is how you are determining better, then yes, it is better for thst.

 

[Jenniebee]

I don't think many people will see this as a prime location. You have to figure, at the time CBR was built, it was the "value" resort. So the choice of location I do believe was intentional. Now fast forward into the future, the WDW property land is quite a bit more developed and there are really not as many free open locations left. So if the objective was to build something near Epcot to satisfy demand in that area, this location plus the added transportation option fit the bill. Is it Deluxe and "flagship" on the same level as GF is to the MK or even BWV is to Epcot, probably not, but I think it more than suits the need/demand that it was created to fill.