S/O of Netflix Thread - Anyone watching Making a Murderer on Netflix?

[nugov2]

http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movie...-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php

Another perspective

I had read most, but not all of that info before. That conversation between Brendan and and his mom is disturbing. The bottom line is for me, our justice system failed both the men accused and the woman who was murdered. The reason it failed is because of misconduct by the police department. If they are guilty the only people to blame for guilty men going free is the PD. These men did not get a fair trial and there was definite evidence tampering. I am not convinced they are innocent but I am convinced they were unfairly convicted and guilty or not that needs to be rectified. Allowing what happened to not be overturned is a huge blemish on our justice system. (Not that I think you feel differently princess Elena, just quoting you for the article ).

 

[rickybobby]

I once saw a documentary on Netflix called "Paul is really Dead" that claimed Paul McCartney died in the early 60's and they found a lookalike so the Beatles could continue as before. I know, it is absolutely unbelievable, but if you watched the film, it was extremely well done and would have you believing that it really happened. Just shows that a good filmmaker can make you believe basically anything when presenting a one sided view.
Just sayin'

 

[nugov2]

I once saw a documentary on Netflix called "Paul is really Dead" that claimed Paul McCartney died in the early 60's and they found a lookalike so the Beatles could continue as before. I know, it is absolutely unbelievable, but if you watched the film, it was extremely well done and would have you believing that it really happened. Just shows that a good filmmaker can make you believe basically anything when presenting a one sided view.
Just sayin'

I don't disagree that documentaries do skew to one POV or the other, but the difference is the Paul McCartney documentary used known false info, just as did a fakeumentary I watched on the existence of mermaids on the discovery channel. I knew it was fake but it did make you wonder lol. Making a murderer may have left some evidence out, but nothing presented showing obvious police misconduct was false. Those coerced confessions from Brendan, evidence found weeks and months later by an officer who shouldn't have been there and had everything to gain if steve avery was found guilty. You cannot unring that bell.

I was able to watch Blackfish, Waiting for Superman etc and take the info with a grain of salt as being presented from a certain pov. There was stuff in the documentary that was presented to gain your sympathy for steve and Brendan. ...being poor, being a community target from a young age, outcast in the family etc that I can see from both sides. I cannot see a side that justifies a key being found weeks later a bullet found months later all by an officer who didn't belong there. I cannot see a side that justifies those interrogations of Brendan or a side that justifies why contaminated evidence was allowed in or even a vile of Avery's blood was tampered with if not to plant evidence. Nothing can unmuddy those waters in my mind.

 

[RitaE]

I'm undecided on Steven Avery. I think it is possible he was responsible for the crime, but the evidence and case development were so compromised and shady I don't think I could state with any confidence that he DID do it.

I might have believed Brendon Dassey knew something about the crime but I don't believe his original confession one bit. The physical evidence doesn't support it and the video tape of his interviews is a case study in how to manipulate an intellectually compromised pliable teen into saying whatever it is you wish him to say. I really doubt he was involved in the rape and murder of that woman. It just doesn't seem to fit any likely scenario and it just doesn't seem to fit the profile of his personality or emotional maturity or abilities.

If somebody forced me to pick a theory and defend it right now, I'd say the police found the car and body extremely early in the Investigation and had a mixture of suspicion and hope that Steven Avery was the guilty party. Somebody got nervous about an ability to convict and certain elements with biased motives at best overstepped professional boundaries and at worst fabricated evidence.

 

[lovemygoofy]

I haven't seen this series yet. I'm sure we will get to it at some point. It's not really my thing but more my husband's.

Anyways if you want something else to watch that is similar, try Paradise Lost. This is a movie version with Reese Witherspoon and Colin Firth about trying to find the killer(s) of some young children in West Memphis and the conviction of three teenagers (West Memphis 3) because they were "weird" and their release afterwards.

 

[Lovin' Disney]

In Avery's case against Manitowoc County, it was said that insurance wouldn't cover it and they were looking at a payout of around $36 million. This made the county and the others named in the lawsuit nervous about their futures.

Teresa was at Steven Avery's place taking pictures on Oct 31st. Somewhere within the next 3-4 days, Colburn calls in the license plate to confirm it's from Teresa's RAV4. This is BEFORE it is found by the searchers. So the police had a day or two to do what they wanted with it. There is a possibility that the key was still inside the RAV4 when Colburn found it as well. Since Lenk and Colburn were besties, he could have very easily given it to Lenk to "find" later on. Or when he asked the dispatcher if it was a '99 Toyota, did he get a key from a different RAV4 and present it as hers? Remember, only Avery's DNA was found on the key, not even Teresa's.

This is all of interest because Colburn had been given information that Avery was innocent nearly 8 years (in 1995 from the man who actually did the crime, Allen) before Avery was let out of prison. But the day AFTER Avery was released from prison in 2003, Colburn was sure to write out a statement with this information.

Around Nov 5th, 2 ladies "find" the RAV4 in the salvage yard. One of them stated that they arrived to the search party area after everyone else, were given a camera by Teresa's ex-boyfriend (I think), and found the Rav4 after about 45 minutes of searching. Note that there were literally hundreds of vehicles on this lot that spanned many acres. These 2 ladies happen to be related to the ex-boyfriend; an aunt & cousin maybe? The coincidence of arriving late, being given a camera, and finding the RAV4 in less than an hour seems a bit fishy.

The ex-boyfriend admitted to checking Teresa's cell phone messages by "guessing" her password, which he said consisted of her sisters' birthdates. Later on it was revealed that some of the messages appeared to have been erased because at one point the mailbox was full, and then it wasn't. Why erase anything?

There was no blood found in the bedroom, garage, etc. of Teresa's. If all of these horrible things happened to her at his residence, wouldn't there be something, somewhere? It's highly unlikely that she was killed in his house/garage. She had to have been killed somewhere else.

Is it possible that when the bullet was found in Avery's garage so many months later, the police had been working with the crime lab & were given the bullet as they were going through the bone fragments from the firepit? How is it that the bullet only had Teresa's DNA on it, but no blood? Plus no blood on the floor where it was found? Did it go cleanly through her head & land on the floor? It seems unlikely.

There are just too many coincidences for me. I feel like Lenk, Colburn, Fassbender, and the ex-boyfriend are all somehow involved.

I don't think Brendan Dassey was involved at all. I can't believe they were allowed to question him without his mom present. I also found it crazy when they made him draw those pictures after he was done with his statement.

 

[BelleBee]

A juror spoke to the documentary makers about how some of them were forced to vote guilty because they feared for their personal safety. Two of the jurors had ties to the Manitowoc Sheriff's Department and I assume the jurors feared some kind of reprisal from the sheriff's department if they voted not guilty. The sheriff's department would know who voted what since they had ties to the jury. What people are forgetting is if Avery would have won his case against Manitowoc County (and he would have) it would have bankrupted the county. Some people were determined to make sure they didn't give him a dime.

 

[nugov2]

http://www.people.com/article/steven-avery-juror-says-two-jurors-related-county-employees

I wonder how accurate this information is. That would be outrageous if it is true. I hope that isn't the case, but sadly with all of the information that has been released I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[lizabu]

Are you watching this? I'm on the last episode.

 

[ashley0139]

I'm on episode 3. Crazy already, and I've heard it gets crazier.

 

[Mizzoufan]

http://disboards.com/threads/s-o-of...-a-murderer-on-netflix.3471310/#post-54914989

 

[lizabu]

http://disboards.com/threads/s-o-of...-a-murderer-on-netflix.3471310/#post-54914989

Thanks

 

[lizabu]

In Avery's case against Manitowoc County, it was said that insurance wouldn't cover it and they were looking at a payout of around $36 million. This made the county and the others named in the lawsuit nervous about their futures.

Teresa was at Steven Avery's place taking pictures on Oct 31st. Somewhere within the next 3-4 days, Colburn calls in the license plate to confirm it's from Teresa's RAV4. This is BEFORE it is found by the searchers. So the police had a day or two to do what they wanted with it. There is a possibility that the key was still inside the RAV4 when Colburn found it as well. Since Lenk and Colburn were besties, he could have very easily given it to Lenk to "find" later on. Or when he asked the dispatcher if it was a '99 Toyota, did he get a key from a different RAV4 and present it as hers? Remember, only Avery's DNA was found on the key, not even Teresa's.

This is all of interest because Colburn had been given information that Avery was innocent nearly 8 years (in 1995 from the man who actually did the crime, Allen) before Avery was let out of prison. But the day AFTER Avery was released from prison in 2003, Colburn was sure to write out a statement with this information.

Around Nov 5th, 2 ladies "find" the RAV4 in the salvage yard. One of them stated that they arrived to the search party area after everyone else, were given a camera by Teresa's ex-boyfriend (I think), and found the Rav4 after about 45 minutes of searching. Note that there were literally hundreds of vehicles on this lot that spanned many acres. These 2 ladies happen to be related to the ex-boyfriend; an aunt & cousin maybe? The coincidence of arriving late, being given a camera, and finding the RAV4 in less than an hour seems a bit fishy.

The ex-boyfriend admitted to checking Teresa's cell phone messages by "guessing" her password, which he said consisted of her sisters' birthdates. Later on it was revealed that some of the messages appeared to have been erased because at one point the mailbox was full, and then it wasn't. Why erase anything?

There was no blood found in the bedroom, garage, etc. of Teresa's. If all of these horrible things happened to her at his residence, wouldn't there be something, somewhere? It's highly unlikely that she was killed in his house/garage. She had to have been killed somewhere else.

Is it possible that when the bullet was found in Avery's garage so many months later, the police had been working with the crime lab & were given the bullet as they were going through the bone fragments from the firepit? How is it that the bullet only had Teresa's DNA on it, but no blood? Plus no blood on the floor where it was found? Did it go cleanly through her head & land on the floor? It seems unlikely.

There are just too many coincidences for me. I feel like Lenk, Colburn, Fassbender, and the ex-boyfriend are all somehow involved.

I don't think Brendan Dassey was involved at all. I can't believe they were allowed to question him without his mom present. I also found it crazy when they made him draw those pictures after he was done with his statement.

Exactly. A jury is only supposed to say guilty if they believe the defendant is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. What you have chronicled are a whole bunch of shadows of doubt.

 

[WebmasterMaryJo]

A guy on our local radio station was talking about this today and encouraging everyone to watch it.

 

[IDoDis]

I watched the documentary a couple of weeks ago. Sadly, this sort of thing happens all the time all over the country when poor people can't afford to hire their own lawyer, it's just not followed and documented like this case was. A friend of mine who is a public defender says she sees things like this DAILY in her job -- not all of the things that happened with how the case was handled, but bits and pieces. She said that if the public knew how many times covictions were given due to coercion of witnesses and getting confessions from defendants through leading interview questions (especially with those with lower IQ's, the whole system would fall apart because no one would trust the system.

One thing someone mentioned here was how to explain Steven's DNA on the latch of the hood. The DNA on the hood was not blood and could have EASILY been transferred from any type if swab that was done in the house during the 8 days that the investigators had full reign of the Avery property. All one would have to do is rub a rubber glove over a coffee cup or any object that belonged to Steven to get that DNA and then transfer it to the inside hood latch. Remember, the plate was called in 3 days before the vehicle was found and the sign-in/sign-out log used to watch the vehicle had discrepencies because an investigator keeping an eye on the vehicle hadn't signed in.

Another reason I don't believe the hood latch DNA is convincing is because the DNA was ONLY found on the inside latch of the hood. There were no fingerprints or DNA outside of the hood nor anywhere else on the vehicle. How strange that the ONLY evidence is a blood smear on the dashboard and non-blood DNA on the hood latch, but nowhere else, not even the steering wheel. The same goes for the key. No finger print on the key, no print or DNA from Teresa on her own key -- just Steven's DNA. That key was washed and then his DNA was planted.

Lastly, i will comment that I've taught students with the same IQ as Brendan. Many times there's a fine line between stuff they make up and the truth. The kids in this IQ range sometimes have a difficult time separating fact from fiction. If you didn't kow the child you'd have no reason to suspect he was making something up, but because he's thinking it in his head, he thinks it's true/that it really happened. They see a movie and then have a story to tell about something that sounds like a true thing until one talks to the parent and then finds out they saw a movie about such and such and now think it's real. Brendan was lead to this confession based on the movie or book "Kiss the Girls." He wanted to go home so he said what the prosecution wanted to hear based on what he knew from the movie. He told his mom he and Steven killed Teresa because the detective told him to tell his mom before he (the detective) told her so he lied to his mom initially. His first attorney aka Howdy Doody, should be the one in jail for what he did to his client.

Our jury system was established so that people aren't convicted on a "maybe." This case is a "maybe he did it" case, but there was way too much doubt to convict. More doubt than the "maybe he did or probably he did it" theory, IMO.

 

[mamacatnv]

In Avery's case against Manitowoc County, it was said that insurance wouldn't cover it and they were looking at a payout of around $36 million. This made the county and the others named in the lawsuit nervous about their futures.

Teresa was at Steven Avery's place taking pictures on Oct 31st. Somewhere within the next 3-4 days, Colburn calls in the license plate to confirm it's from Teresa's RAV4. This is BEFORE it is found by the searchers. So the police had a day or two to do what they wanted with it. There is a possibility that the key was still inside the RAV4 when Colburn found it as well. Since Lenk and Colburn were besties, he could have very easily given it to Lenk to "find" later on. Or when he asked the dispatcher if it was a '99 Toyota, did he get a key from a different RAV4 and present it as hers? Remember, only Avery's DNA was found on the key, not even Teresa's.

This is all of interest because Colburn had been given information that Avery was innocent nearly 8 years (in 1995 from the man who actually did the crime, Allen) before Avery was let out of prison. But the day AFTER Avery was released from prison in 2003, Colburn was sure to write out a statement with this information.

Around Nov 5th, 2 ladies "find" the RAV4 in the salvage yard. One of them stated that they arrived to the search party area after everyone else, were given a camera by Teresa's ex-boyfriend (I think), and found the Rav4 after about 45 minutes of searching. Note that there were literally hundreds of vehicles on this lot that spanned many acres. These 2 ladies happen to be related to the ex-boyfriend; an aunt & cousin maybe? The coincidence of arriving late, being given a camera, and finding the RAV4 in less than an hour seems a bit fishy.

The ex-boyfriend admitted to checking Teresa's cell phone messages by "guessing" her password, which he said consisted of her sisters' birthdates. Later on it was revealed that some of the messages appeared to have been erased because at one point the mailbox was full, and then it wasn't. Why erase anything?

There was no blood found in the bedroom, garage, etc. of Teresa's. If all of these horrible things happened to her at his residence, wouldn't there be something, somewhere? It's highly unlikely that she was killed in his house/garage. She had to have been killed somewhere else.

Is it possible that when the bullet was found in Avery's garage so many months later, the police had been working with the crime lab & were given the bullet as they were going through the bone fragments from the firepit? How is it that the bullet only had Teresa's DNA on it, but no blood? Plus no blood on the floor where it was found? Did it go cleanly through her head & land on the floor? It seems unlikely.

There are just too many coincidences for me. I feel like Lenk, Colburn, Fassbender, and the ex-boyfriend are all somehow involved.

I don't think Brendan Dassey was involved at all. I can't believe they were allowed to question him without his mom present. I also found it crazy when they made him draw those pictures after he was done with his statement.

Very nice summation.

Hubs and I finished the show yesterday. I am sickened by what happened to Brendan and disgusted that the higher courts can't "see" the injustice but I think this show highlights that our justice system is about the "law" and not necessarily what is right or even true. I'm not sure what happened but I think the police and Teresa's boyfriend should have had a much closer look. I do not believe that Teresa or her family have seen true justice. The actions of the police drip of corruption and there are just so many unanswered questions along with questionable evidence.

I also think the whole family was at an intellectual disadvantage. These folks are not bright by any means, they are borderline incapacitated by their lack of intellect and IMO that is shown over and over in their actions, their comments and their "trust" that the "right" outcome would occur.

Then there is the $34/36 million dollar lawsuit. This cannot be ignored, this had to be a huge factor and a key motivator for the system to shut Avery up. What better way to do that then to make him into a heinous murderer. What better people to frame someone than the police who already knew him from the prior case. The same police that covered up information that would have helped clear him of the original charges. All of that gets swept under the rug with the new case, the heinous murder of a young woman. Its easy for sneaky, conniving, intelligent law enforcement to pull one over on an individual with a limited IQ add an entire family with a limited IQ and I have no doubt the police thought their frame would be a piece of cake, turns out they were right.

 

[rigs32]

Exactly. A jury is only supposed to say guilty if they believe the defendant is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. What you have chronicled are a whole bunch of shadows of doubt.

The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. Not beyond a shadow of a doubt. Those are different things.

 

[tzolkin]

I cannot say with certainty that Avery didn't kill her, but I feel fairly confident that there is no way it could have happened as it was presented in court.

Too many inconsistencies. A few examples:
- She was supposedly already tied up when Brandon got off the bus, but somehow the bus driver and other kids saw her in the yard taking pictures
- Her body had been in the trunk of her vehicle, but supposedly it was only moved a few feet before being burned
- The remains had obviously been moved (found in three separate locations)

And where was the blood? Where? Not one drop of her blood after all that??

This is the biggest thing for me. I really don't see how she could have been raped, stabbed, shot numerous times, had her throat slit, and cut up without one drop of blood. Yes, it could happen, but not by these two guys in this particular location. The house and garage were way too cluttered for them to have cleaned up that well (including a mattress and the concrete they removed?)

I also believe that the conflict of interest issue was quite significant. I know there have been cases where evidence was thrown out and someone who was guilty beyond doubt was set free because the police messed up (accidentally or knowingly). I don't know how that didn't happen in this case. They knew it was a conflict of interest from the beginning, yet those officers were at the crime scene countless times over a period of months and were the ones to find all the evidence. Even if they had fantastic integrity and there could be no question of them planting evidence, they simply should have not been allowed to have anything to do with the case in any way once it was established that there was a conflict. They compromised the case from day one and I don't know how anything was allowed in court.

The whole situation with Brandon's first lawyer and the investigators was just awful.

I did feel there were several other people who could have at least been considered as suspects. If someone else did commit this murder, I think that makes the whole thing even more tragic for Teresa's family.

 

[lizabu]

The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. Not beyond a shadow of a doubt. Those are different things.

Sorry...I'm not a lawyer and I used the wrong legal jargon. I think there is tons of reasonable doubts and shadows of doubt. The juror who left early thought so too. According to him a couple jurors decided he was guilty and dug their heels in until the rest of the jury caved in and changed their votes to guilty.

 

[Tink888]

I think what happened to Steven Avery with the rape conviction was horrible. With the murder, there is a lot of the investigation that I find questionable, particularly with Brendon Dassey. That said, I think there was a lot of bias and things that were omitted from the documentary and that the jury came back with the right verdict for Steven and that he is guilty. The defenses' job was to poke holes in the prosecution's case to create doubt and they did a great job but for me it came down to this:

What is known for sure:

Theresa Halbaugh was murdered.

Steven Avery was the last known person who saw her.

Regardless of where her car and the key was found, her DNA and Avery's blood and sweat DNA were found in the vehicle. The EDTA test, done by third party FBI, found that it wasn't the blood from the vial in the prior case. This is the same test that the defense wanted to have done, but couldn't locate a lab to perform but if they had and those results would've showed EDTA, you can be sure they would've used it and considered their test valid for his defense.

Given Brendan's coerced confession and different stories no one knows for sure exactly what happened before she died but we do know that she was shot (testimony regarding the bone fragments supported that). A bullet fragment or shell casing with Theresa's DNA was found in the garage. Forensics matched the fragment to the gun that Avery owned (not in the documentary, read that online). She was shot with his gun.

Her burned remains, (rivets from her jeans, camera and cell phone-not in movie, read online) were found in the burn pit on the Avery property.

Things not in the movies but that I read online. She'd been to the property before, he asked for her specifically. Made 3 calls to her that day, two of which using *67 to hide his number. He had recently purchased cuffs and leg shackles. Brendan eluded to, both in his interrogation with his investigator and in a phone conversation with his mother, having helped clean up blood in the garage. The mother mentioned in a statement that Brendan came home that night with bleach stains on his jeans.

For me, it's more likely that he did it and sadly brought his nephew into it. Sure he was suing the county for 36million, he wasn't guaranteed that settlement, it's only what he was asking for. I have more doubt that this was all a set up by police to avoid paying out a settlement. For me to go there, I need to believe the police killed her as well. I can't buy that it was just dumb luck a murder victim happened to turn up to support that the theory he was framed.

I don't remember it ever being mentioned if Avery had an alibi or people who saw him that day.

Just my opinion, I realize he didn't commit the first rape, but he did have a record, he was capable of torturing animals, he did have a history of anger toward women.....just because he didn't commit the first rape doesn't make him incapable of committing murder.