The Boat may have sailed, but I continue to let Member Services know....

Judging from the responses on this thread, it appears there are many more people who find walking to be a significant problem. Not a scientific study by any means, but it is an indicator that there are more people in favor of something being done than not.

"Walking" has become a lightning rod but I'm willing to bet that - comparing the # of rooms/room types that actually get walked, to the number of people holding backup reservations and piecing together a reservation a day at a time, stalking the RAT and trying to snag things before the waitlist matches, is actually a much larger "problem." But you don't hear people arguing about it because the people who didnt get a room because it got snagged by someone stalking have zero visibility into seeing that happening; they only see that their waitlist hasn't matched yet.

The reason why I use that as an analogy is a) far more people stalk the WL and try to piece together room reservations as cancellations occur and b) the whole reason why people stalk the RAT is because the WL doesn't always work!

So if you're going to blow up the system to deal with walking with the idea that everyone will have to use the WL because canceled rooms go to the WL first, you're assuming that the WL works perfectly, or close enough to perfectly to be fair. But I can tell you from first hand experience that the WL doesn't work perfectly! And someone who is willing to put in the time and energy to stalk the RAT *and* use the WL carefully (WL single days at a time) is going to win, every time. AND this new system is going to favor those who have the points to book a backup room while stalking. For BLT, for example. it means WL AND booking a LV room, and then dropping the LV room when you've gotten what you want in either a std or TPV. (For AKL, substitute "value/club level" for "standard/savanna" and expect massive cascading effects through the system well into 7 months, as people also drop their SSR backup reservations (or 1BR reservations) in favor of BLT LV or studios, or AKL standard or savanna, or Poly, etc.... opening up
 
We'll have to disagree and it's getting worse.
As I said, considering that Disney basically ignores this exact same problem with 'throwaway rooms', all the evidence points to the fact that Disney in general doesn't think it's that big a deal.
 
Judging from the responses on this thread, it appears there are many more people who find walking to be a significant problem. Not a scientific study by any means, but it is an indicator that there are more people in favor of something being done than not.
This type of thread is going to attract people opposed to the practice. And those people are people who are already attracted to talking about DVC: a subset of a subset of DVC uberusers. I wouldn't judge it to be representative of the general DVC population at all. The general DVC population most likely typically has never even heard of walking.

Making changes to satisfy a subset of a subset of a population has a very high tendency to backfire. Especially if it's done by 'dropping a bomb' on the average DVC member.

Again, if you asked the average Wyndham owner how he felt about megarenters booking all the prime rooms at 25% value, I'm sure it was even wildly more unpopular a practice than walking. With good reason. But. IMHO, taking away the credit pool to fix it (their equivalent of banking/borrowing) sucks even worse. The issue here isn't the problem; it's the proposed cures.
 
"Walking" has become a lightning rod but I'm willing to bet that - comparing the # of rooms/room types that actually get walked, to the number of people holding backup reservations and piecing together a reservation a day at a time, stalking the RAT and trying to snag things before the waitlist matches, is actually a much larger "problem." But you don't hear people arguing about it because the people who didnt get a room because it got snagged by someone stalking have zero visibility into seeing that happening; they only see that their waitlist hasn't matched yet.

The reason why I use that as an analogy is a) far more people stalk the WL and try to piece together room reservations as cancellations occur and b) the whole reason why people stalk the RAT is because the WL doesn't always work!

So if you're going to blow up the system to deal with walking with the idea that everyone will have to use the WL because canceled rooms go to the WL first, you're assuming that the WL works perfectly, or close enough to perfectly to be fair. But I can tell you from first hand experience that the WL doesn't work perfectly! And someone who is willing to put in the time and energy to stalk the RAT *and* use the WL carefully (WL single days at a time) is going to win, every time. AND this new system is going to favor those who have the points to book a backup room while stalking. For BLT, for example. it means WL AND booking a LV room, and then dropping the LV room when you've gotten what you want in either a std or TPV. (For AKL, substitute "value/club level" for "standard/savanna" and expect massive cascading effects through the system well into 7 months, as people also drop their SSR backup reservations (or 1BR reservations) in favor of BLT LV or studios, or AKL standard or savanna, or Poly, etc.... opening up

I agree that the WL seems like a much larger problem that would need fixing first. I am just pointing out that the process of walking is both unfair and unethical, and that people for the most part recognize it as such. As long as it is allowed, though, it will continue to be standard operating procedure. Despite it being "wrong", I would do it to get a hard to get reservation.
I think that DVC is a great system overall. Great value and enjoyable accomodations. There are flaws to it though. Even higher than a poor WL system is the poor IT that they have. If the website worked the way most others do at 8 am, there would be far less frustration. I also do not think that a bomb should be dropped to stop walking, and that other areas need to be fixed first. I am just pointing out that it is a reasonable thing for people to be frustrated by it. It really is using a system at the expense of others just to benefit yourself.
 


As I said, considering that Disney basically ignores this exact same problem with 'throwaway rooms', all the evidence points to the fact that Disney in general doesn't think it's that big a deal.

Disney has absolutely no incentive to do anything about throwaway rooms. They get free money for them! If people want to stay on property and all the campsites are taken, then they can either stay off of property (Disney loses nothing if this happens) or they can spend more to stay at Pop Century or something along those lines. As long as people are paying for the rooms that they are not using, then I consider it to be a fair practice.

Making changes to satisfy a subset of a subset of a population has a very high tendency to backfire. Especially if it's done by 'dropping a bomb' on the average DVC member.

I really doubt that DVC will do anything about walking, either. Especially in the short term. How would it benefit them? Rooms are still being booked to near 100% occupancy, and resale prices are at all time highs, showing a historical demand for DVC. That's why I like that the title of this thread implies that "oh well, there is nothing we can do about it." It's more just food for thought about how things could be improved for the better in the future, especially if what is considered to be a small problem, only affecting a few people right now, continues to grow as demand increases.
 
I agree that the WL seems like a much larger problem that would need fixing first. I am just pointing out that the process of walking is both unfair and unethical, and that people for the most part recognize it as such. As long as it is allowed, though, it will continue to be standard operating procedure. Despite it being "wrong", I would do it to get a hard to get reservation.
I think that DVC is a great system overall. Great value and enjoyable accomodations. There are flaws to it though. Even higher than a poor WL system is the poor IT that they have. If the website worked the way most others do at 8 am, there would be far less frustration. I also do not think that a bomb should be dropped to stop walking, and that other areas need to be fixed first. I am just pointing out that it is a reasonable thing for people to be frustrated by it. It really is using a system at the expense of others just to benefit yourself.

I generally agree with everything you said, but ... in anything where there is limited resources, aren't you using a system at the expense of others to benefit yourself? Isn't that the case with dining reservations as well? There's only so many BOG dinner reservations so every seat I claim on a reservation is one that someone else can't claim. The difference there is that there's no wait list so it's first come first served, and if one suddenly opens up when you happen to be looking, you win!

(But I just realized, there's the canceled reservations threads here, where people can try to time their reservations to someone else's cancellations. Is that ok because people do it for "free" ?) I'm trying very hard to understand how using a loophole that is totally within the rules is unethical.

Here's another example - I have a much faster internet connection at work than at home, so I go in to work super early on my day (I'm not walking) and log in and I am going to get that AKV value studio before someone who has a slower connection from home. That's certainly using a resource that I have that others may not have, to book a room at the expense of someone else.

I am truly trying not to be argumentative for argument's sake; I'm really trying to understand how only one of these examples is unethical while the others are not. Seems (to me) that the distinction is that walking is the scapegoat for times when someone is online at 8am at the dot at the 11-mo window and doesn't get the room. But who here has actually been unable to book at 8am/11mo due to someone else walking?
 
I generally agree with everything you said, but ... in anything where there is limited resources, aren't you using a system at the expense of others to benefit yourself? Isn't that the case with dining reservations as well? There's only so many BOG dinner reservations so every seat I claim on a reservation is one that someone else can't claim. The difference there is that there's no wait list so it's first come first served, and if one suddenly opens up when you happen to be looking, you win!

(But I just realized, there's the canceled reservations threads here, where people can try to time their reservations to someone else's cancellations. Is that ok because people do it for "free" ?) I'm trying very hard to understand how using a loophole that is totally within the rules is unethical.

Here's another example - I have a much faster internet connection at work than at home, so I go in to work super early on my day (I'm not walking) and log in and I am going to get that AKV value studio before someone who has a slower connection from home. That's certainly using a resource that I have that others may not have, to book a room at the expense of someone else.

I am truly trying not to be argumentative for argument's sake; I'm really trying to understand how only one of these examples is unethical while the others are not. Seems (to me) that the distinction is that walking is the scapegoat for times when someone is online at 8am at the dot at the 11-mo window and doesn't get the room. But who here has actually been unable to book at 8am/11mo due to someone else walking?

None of this has had any impact on me personally, I am just a personal fan of ethics and economics so I like th chime in on discussions like these just for kicks. As I have said, nothing will actually change as a result of this conversation. To me, the difference of using a fast computer and getting a few days head start is huge. If two people were running a footrace, using a faster connection would be like having the best shoes. You stand a much better chance of winning, but it is not a shoo in, and the other person running is allowed to buy those same shoes as well. Walking is like tying the other person's shoelaces together. You are guaranteed to win not due to planning or good luck, but due to sneaking and cheating the other person out of even a chance to get what they were fighting for.
 


...

I really doubt that DVC will do anything about walking, either. Especially in the short term. How would it benefit them? Rooms are still being booked to near 100% occupancy, and resale prices are at all time highs, showing a historical demand for DVC. That's why I like that the title of this thread implies that "oh well, there is nothing we can do about it." It's more just food for thought about how things could be improved for the better in the future, especially if what is considered to be a small problem, only affecting a few people right now, continues to grow as demand increases.

Totally agree with the statement in bold - I would also add that anything that reduces the liquidity/usability of the points will likely reduce the value of those points as well. So it is a tough balance.

I disagree with the part in pink though. Right now, walking seems to only affect those people at particular resorts who are trying to book at particular times (fall frenzy weekends), for particular room types. I took a look at availability right now from Nov 1-8, and there is probably a walk going on for:

BWV BW view studio
AKV value studio
AKV 1BR club level

That's it. Other things seem legitimately booked for the weekend or the week before (BLT std all sizes, BWV std studios, OKW nr hospitality house, VGF studios, CCV studios). But the vast majority of rooms are wide open. Demand isn't likely to go one way or the other for rooms at these resorts at 11 months as demand is limited to those with home resort advantage at 11 mo and these are all sold out (except CCV I guess - that I have no idea what is going on there, unless not all rooms are open yet). Demand WILL increase at 7 mo, however, because of all the new buyers (especially at Poly, who are likely only buying enough points for a studio without much cushion) who want to try a different resort. But walking doesn't work at 7 mo anyway.
 
Bottom line - I think Disney is going to have many more irate DVCers (and not the uberusers here) who bought direct points at Poly (especially) and CCV on the notion that they can use their points "anywhere" and they find that a) all the cheapest studios at the other resorts they want to try are gone (and we gone long before, booked by those with home resort advantage), and b) even for many other rooms, the early bird catches the worm and 8am/7mo becomes a requirement if you want to get a studio somewhere other than home resort.
 
None of this has had any impact on me personally, I am just a personal fan of ethics and economics so I like th chime in on discussions like these just for kicks. As I have said, nothing will actually change as a result of this conversation. To me, the difference of using a fast computer and getting a few days head start is huge. If two people were running a footrace, using a faster connection would be like having the best shoes. You stand a much better chance of winning, but it is not a shoo in, and the other person running is allowed to buy those same shoes as well. Walking is like tying the other person's shoelaces together. You are guaranteed to win not due to planning or good luck, but due to sneaking and cheating the other person out of even a chance to get what they were fighting for.
Except that everyone has an equal chance to walk. It’s a trick available to someone with even one extra night’s worth of points.

To me, walking is more akin to waiting outside the Apple Store for 3 days prior to the next release. Anybody can do it, but it takes extra effort. If that’s your thang, knock yourself out.

I think it would be more unfair if some of the proposed fixes here were adopted. Most of the fixes would give a huge advantage to large point owners. Effectively limiting walking to only people with say > 250 points would seem to me to be more unfair. And even cancel/rebook would allow for strategies that advantage large point owners.
 
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So what I don't get about the walking thing is how can a room showing available tonight for Nov 6, 2018 that right at 8am becomes unavailable....how can that be due to walking? As a BWV owner who was trying to book a standard view 2BR or studio for next Oct, this happened every day for the two weeks I tried (and, man, I would hit enter right at 8am on the dot). Those walking book a week and then about four days in they drop the first four days and book the next four. They have to call to do that...at 9am. So walkers aren't grabbing the rooms. They disappear at 8am. Unless days past 11 months, like Nov 6, 2018, won't show as booked right now since its not 11 months yet (not until tomorrow). But I can select Nov 5 through Nov 12 and it will show the days available. I think DVC shows them as available (whatever color it is on the RAT...when the room is available) when maybe they really aren't because DVC doesn't want us to argue/complain that we are not getting the 11 month bookings we were guaranteed.
 
So what I don't get about the walking thing is how can a room showing available tonight for Nov 6, 2018 that right at 8am becomes unavailable....how can that be due to walking? As a BWV owner who was trying to book a standard view 2BR or studio for next Oct, this happened every day for the two weeks I tried (and, man, I would hit enter right at 8am on the dot). Those walking book a week and then about four days in they drop the first four days and book the next four. They have to call to do that...at 9am. So walkers aren't grabbing the rooms. They disappear at 8am. Unless days past 11 months, like Nov 6, 2018, won't show as booked right now since its not 11 months yet (not until tomorrow). But I can select Nov 5 through Nov 12 and it will show the days available. I think DVC shows them as available (whatever color it is on the RAT...when the room is available) when maybe they really aren't because DVC doesn't want us to argue/complain that we are not getting the 11 month bookings we were guaranteed.
Let’s say there are 20 rooms for Nov 6th total inventory.

Say 12 people are currently walking, 10 people want to reserve a week starting on Nov 6th, and 6 people are trying to gain entry into the avail rooms to start their walk for a future date.

That means at EXACTLY 8 am, 16 people are vying for 8 rooms. The inventory is going to be gone in microseconds.

(The number of people just trying to book at 11 months is probably much higher. So much so that - between them, future walkers and current walkers already blocking inventory, there are likely 3-4 times the number people trying to book right at 8 as there are rooms avail.)

At 8 am, you aren’t directly competing against current walkers, but they have reduced inventory and you ARE competing against future walkers trying to nail down a place to start walking.
 
So what I don't get about the walking thing is how can a room showing available tonight for Nov 6, 2018 that right at 8am becomes unavailable....how can that be due to walking? As a BWV owner who was trying to book a standard view 2BR or studio for next Oct, this happened every day for the two weeks I tried (and, man, I would hit enter right at 8am on the dot). Those walking book a week and then about four days in they drop the first four days and book the next four. They have to call to do that...at 9am. So walkers aren't grabbing the rooms. They disappear at 8am. Unless days past 11 months, like Nov 6, 2018, won't show as booked right now since its not 11 months yet (not until tomorrow). But I can select Nov 5 through Nov 12 and it will show the days available. I think DVC shows them as available (whatever color it is on the RAT...when the room is available) when maybe they really aren't because DVC doesn't want us to argue/complain that we are not getting the 11 month bookings we were guaranteed.

2-3 times in Oct. standard studios at BWV were booked both the 1st day and 2nd day of the booking window. So, if they're gone, they will show as gone. Also, on 11/30, 10/30/18 was gone, 10/31/18 was open but 11/1/18 was also gone.

I think you have a good point. There's obviously some walking going on because dates that were previously booked will suddenly become available (and then disappear again). There are only 50ish standard studios and yet there is still availability just past the 11 month mark. So, there are still more rooms than walkers even at what seems to be the very busiest time for BWV.

I think people should be blaming the waitlist not walkers. If you try at 8 am and get shut out due to walkers, getting on the waitlist should still give you the room you want when the walkers pass. If not, then it's not because of walking, it's because somebody got the room first.
 
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Except that everyone has an equal chance to walk. It’s a trick available to someone with even one extra night’s worth of points.

To me, walking is more akin to waiting outside the Apple Store for 3 days prior to the next release. Anybody can do it, but it takes extra effort. If that’s your thang, knock yourself out.

That's part of the problem with walking. Everyone can do it, but only a few choose to, at the expense of others. Unless Disney does something about it, it will force this technique on anybody who wants a hard to get room over time, which will then introduce extreme walking - booking a room 3 months before you actually want it.
This may be a small problem now, but it has the potential to grow as more people utilize their resources to find out about walking, and as Poly and CCV sell out with their limited number of studios.
I agree that there is no perfect fix, and that doing nothing may be better than trying to fix anything. I am just pointing out that people have a point when they point out their frustration with walking.
 
As I said, considering that Disney basically ignores this exact same problem with 'throwaway rooms', all the evidence points to the fact that Disney in general doesn't think it's that big a deal.
Throw away rooms are different, they're paid for and unused. When I refer to rooms one doesn't plan to use, I'm talking rooms they don't intend to pay for and release later used as a tool for walking or similar. Some might ask is it really different than reserving a 1 BR AND a 2 BR planning to release one later once you know what you don't need and I'd say it is truly different though I could see the argument the other way. IMO one should have some skin in the game to make changes whether it be the risk of not getting the change or a $$$ penalty to make the change. When one doesn't have risk, they make different decision and tend to ignore the consequences to the system and in the case of a timeshare, the other members. Another way to approach it would be to allow a limited number of changes per UY then a $$$ cost per change after that, maybe 3 a year or so many per 100 points then a small $$$ charge after that, maybe $50 per change. Personally I think it's a big issue currently for certain resorts some of the year and getting worse. Philosophically I have an issue with DVC allowing people to essentially circumvent the 11 month reservation window which is what walking does. Philosophically I also feel someone holding a reservation who wants to change should go to the bottom of the list for the change and that one on the wait list should come ahead of them. An interesting poll would be what those feel bout walking who are not doing it, I'm betting it'd be a dramatically lopsided pole. I suspect DVC is going to get more and more complaints about this issue when people can't get reservations at 11 months out esp when they figure out walking is at lest part of the reason. I predict something will change by the end of of 2019 or 2020 specifically aimed at walking.
 
That's part of the problem with walking. Everyone can do it, but only a few choose to, at the expense of others. Unless Disney does something about it, it will force this technique on anybody who wants a hard to get room over time, which will then introduce extreme walking - booking a room 3 months before you actually want it.
This may be a small problem now, but it has the potential to grow as more people utilize their resources to find out about walking, and as Poly and CCV sell out with their limited number of studios.
I agree that there is no perfect fix, and that doing nothing may be better than trying to fix anything. I am just pointing out that people have a point when they point out their frustration with walking.
Walking is the result of a basic supply/demand problem: resorts with fewer studios in a category at busy times of years. Walking is merely a symptom of the problem.

It’s likely not going to spread beyond the supply/demand areas (although the underlying problem(s) probably will grow as DVC does) and fixing walking won’t fix the supply/demand.

And you better believe that CCV is going to have this problem with studios in Dec.

The only true fix is to address the cause and not the symptom. If DVC ever really addresses it, it will be with a fairly large reallocation away from Fall:

Something on the order of BWV standard studios costing 20-30 more points/week during Fall Frenzy. You’d have to increase the price of studios until it affects supply/demand. Enough so that you’d essentially make Spring/Summer the cheaper point seasons.

But my guess is that the people upset that they can’t get BWV standard studio during week 49 without competing for it don’t really want to pay 30 more points for it each year as a realistic fix.
 
Walking is the result of a basic supply/demand problem: resorts with fewer studios in a category at busy times of years. Walking is merely a symptom of the problem.

It’s likely not going to spread beyond the supply/demand areas (although the underlying problem(s) probably will grow as DVC does) and fixing walking won’t fix the supply/demand.

And you better believe that CCV is going to have this problem with studios in Dec.

The only true fix is to address the cause and not the symptom. If DVC ever really addresses it, it will be with a fairly large reallocation away from Fall:

Something on the order of BWV standard studios costing 20-30 more points/week during Fall Frenzy. You’d have to increase the price of studios until it affects supply/demand. Enough so that you’d essentially make Spring/Summer the cheaper point seasons.

But my guess is that the people upset that they can’t get BWV standard studio during week 49 without competing for it don’t really want to pay 30 more points for it each year as a realistic fix.


I can see the login in your statement and I think you are correct. I would be very glad if that relocation ever happens so summer would be the cheapest :-)

If you calculate the cost of a BWV studio during october or november rented directly from Disney that is still approx 50% more expensive compared to renting from a DVC owners which charges $20 pp. Increasing the point cost for those units would somehow make sense, if disney didn't increase their prices as well.

IMHO the point costs should be increased/lower at the times when you have the most/less demand. That way DVC also do whatever they can to even the "load" on the resorts throughout the year.
 
Remove walking and people will still complain because they cannot get the AKV value at 11 months. Some rooms are simply too few to satisfy demand.
There's an elephant in the room: reallocation. Make AKV value or BWV standard just 1-2 points less expensive than other rooms and walking would disappear. The same for fall frenzy, especially the first two weeks of December.
DVC seasons are allocated according to travel pattern that were valid for hotel rooms 25 years ago.
 
While it's true that stopping the ability to walk doesn't fix the supply & demand issue, it will make the booking process appear to be more "fair", and will noticeably lighten the load on MS during the more popular booking periods. IMO, that's a plus for both DVCMC and members.
 
... Also, on 11/30, 10/30/18 was gone, 10/31/18 was open but 11/1/18 was also gone....

I think there was a thread here on 11/30 that that was a glitch not due to walking, because there was no way that on 11/30, 11/1 could be gone with 10/31 open. I think the thread was called "Member Services Exception" but I'm too lazy to look it up. But this was another case where "walkers" were blamed for something that wasn't walking. I think it was rooms being taken out of inventory for another reason.
 

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