This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[Disney1fan2002]

When my youngest son was 4 years old, my husband lost him in Epcot coming off Maelstrom in Norway. The exit was a nightmare, the ride exit poured out into the shopping traffic and many times it was gridlock. I had gone with my MIL to England to look at tea sets in the gift shop. DH had gone with my FIL and the 3 kids to ride Maelstrom and we were all going to meet at Spaceship Earth, then exit. When I called DH to see if he was heading over to SE, he told me he was looking for Danny. My boy was missing for 20 minutes. 20 of the longest minutes of my life. As I was heading to security to report him missing, my mind was going a mile a minute. Many of my thoughts were what I would do to my DH if ANYTHING happened to him!!! We were lucky, two nice couples came upon him and brought him to the lost child center. We picked him up there. I had a long talk with my husband, he knew I was very upset. He did not lose him on purpose, it could have happened to me(maybe). IF something happened to him, found face down in a fountain, someone took him, etc.....it would have broke us. I can say with certainty I would not have been able to look at him, nevermind forgive him. So yeah, I get how this could destroy a family.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Does that mean he won't get any punishment...I don't know.

I truly think he will get probation and be able to serve it in Indiana. Yes, he should admit responsibility, but even if only because nobody will leave their young child in his sole care, it will never happen again.

 

[luvsJack]

I think that people would be a bit more sympathetic to him if he would have taken responsibility for his actions instead of making all kinds of excuses. If he would have fessed up right away and admitted how wrong and stupid he was, then I can see probation. But to continually put the blame on others, shows that he is still a danger to society, because he has not accepted that he did anything wrong. If it takes him sitting in jail to realize the error of his ways and to accept blame, then jail time is absolutely warranted.

How on earth is he a danger to society? He isn't going to run around dropping people out of windows. This isn't something that is likely to ever happen again. Jail isn't there for him to accept responsibility (look how many are sitting there now that don't accept it).

 

[Lilsia]

How on earth is he a danger to society? He isn't going to run around dropping people out of windows. This isn't something that is likely to ever happen again. Jail isn't there for him to accept responsibility (look how many are sitting there now that don't accept it).

He is reckless with the lives of those dependent on him AND he refuses to take responsibility for his actions. He did something that 99.99999% of people would never do because most people see the danger in this. What other stupid, reckless things does he do that shows his lack of judgement? He should have some kind of punishment, and "feeling bad" is not a punishment. You do something wrong, you need to pay the price otherwise everyone who does something reckless that hurts or kills another person can just say that they "feel bad enough" and get out of any punishment.

 

[luvsJack]

When my youngest son was 4 years old, my husband lost him in Epcot coming off Maelstrom in Norway. The exit was a nightmare, the ride exit poured out into the shopping traffic and many times it was gridlock. I had gone with my MIL to England to look at tea sets in the gift shop. DH had gone with my FIL and the 3 kids to ride Maelstrom and we were all going to meet at Spaceship Earth, then exit. When I called DH to see if he was heading over to SE, he told me he was looking for Danny. My boy was missing for 20 minutes. 20 of the longest minutes of my life. As I was heading to security to report him missing, my mind was going a mile a minute. Many of my thoughts were what I would do to my DH if ANYTHING happened to him!!! We were lucky, two nice couples came upon him and brought him to the lost child center. We picked him up there. I had a long talk with my husband, he knew I was very upset. He did not lose him on purpose, it could have happened to me(maybe). IF something happened to him, found face down in a fountain, someone took him, etc.....it would have broke us. I can say with certainty I would not have been able to look at him, nevermind forgive him. So yeah, I get how this could destroy a family.

See, I don't get that. Your husband didn't "lose" him like you lose a quarter. Your child walked away, or your husband lost his grip on him, or they were separated by the crowd. I love my children with every ounce of my being, but if something tragic happened when one of my children were with DH, he would be as devastated as I would. I just don't think that I would go around slinging blame at him. Forgiveness wouldn't be necessary because I wouldn't blame him.

With what happened with the grandpa here, I don't know how I would feel toward him. But his devastation and his love for that child, would have a lot to do with my actions toward him.

Maybe its my faith and belief system, but sometimes you just have to forgive to heal. And I think that is where I wold be with grandpa. But, then the parents do not seem to blame him so, who knows. Maybe that is their survival kicking in. I don't know.

 

[luvsJack]

He is reckless with the lives of those dependent on him AND he refuses to take responsibility for his actions. He did something that 99.99999% of people would never do because most people see the danger in this. What other stupid, reckless things does he do that shows his lack of judgement? He should have some kind of punishment, and "feeling bad" is not a punishment. You do something wrong, you need to pay the price otherwise everyone who does something reckless that hurts or kills another person can just say that they "feel bad enough" and get out of any punishment.

You honestly think this man's pain can be described as "feeling bad"???

And just like I told the last pp that said it, that last sentence is absolutely ridiculous. You are lumping him together with cold blooded murderers. He isn't a murderer.

Making a bad judgment and refusing to take responsibility does not = deserving jail time. If it did, half the 20 somethings in this country would be in jail right now. And unless you have had a conversation with the man without the lawyer, you don't have any idea what responsibility he is taking. Remember what you see, read and hear is only what the attorneys have told them they can say. We are privy to private conversations or his thoughts.

 

[TheIncredibles!]

You honestly think this man's pain can be described as "feeling bad"???

And just like I told the last pp that said it, that last sentence is absolutely ridiculous. You are lumping him together with cold blooded murderers. He isn't a murderer.

Making a bad judgment and refusing to take responsibility does not = deserving jail time. If it did, half the 20 somethings in this country would be in jail right now. And unless you have had a conversation with the man without the lawyer, you don't have any idea what responsibility he is taking. Remember what you see, read and hear is only what the attorneys have told them they can say. We are privy to private conversations or his thoughts.

He killed a child. Manslaughter. Negligent homicide...whatever it’s classification is somebody died because of what he did. If he killed a stranger instead would people be ok with letting him get off with no jail time? It should not matter who the victim was or if you know them. A dead child equals massive judicial punishment IMO.

 

[sam_gordon]

He killed a child. Manslaughter. Negligent homicide...whatever it’s classification is somebody died because of what he did. If he killed a stranger instead would people be ok with letting him get off with no jail time? It should not matter who the victim was or if you know them. A dead child equals massive judicial punishment IMO.

Under the EXACT SAME circumstances? Yes, I'm fine with probation. If he just picked up a strange child "just because" I would feel different.

 

[fsjking]

If this was their first cruise, I absolutely see wanting to believe the lawyer’s spin that it was a dangerous open window in a children’s play area. They weren’t on the ship that long. As for the grandfather, I can’t imagine he doesn’t feel extremely sad and heartbroken. If I were him, I would remove myself from the rest of the family, and I’m sure they’d be better off if that happened. No, I don’t think I could forgive, heck dd17 fell off of the money bars while in the care of her dad and grandparents when she was 3 (they admitted they weren’t paying attentio), she had black eyes and needed surgery last year for a deviated septum).

Except no one rational will buy that it's a children's play area. It's directly next to a bar and is one of the designated smoking areas on the ship. The children's play areas on Freedom are inside with solid windows. At this point, the family needs someone to blame and probably can't accept blaming Grandpa and moving on with their life. There's also a huge payday potentially involved here, so they can't just come out and disassociate with him until that's settled. Once this is over though, regardless the outcome, I can't imagine them having anything to do with him again. If they do, I'd really question the kind of people they are.

 

[luvsJack]

He killed a child. Manslaughter. Negligent homicide...whatever it’s classification is somebody died because of what he did. If he killed a stranger instead would people be ok with letting him get off with no jail time? It should not matter who the victim was or if you know them. A dead child equals massive judicial punishment IMO.

Again, he isn't a murderer. He didn't kill anyone. His act of negligence resulted in her death.

What result are you trying to get by putting him in jail?

 

[mjkacmom]

Except no one rational will buy that it's a children's play area. It's directly next to a bar and is one of the designated smoking areas on the ship. The children's play areas on Freedom are inside with solid windows. At this point, the family needs someone to blame and probably can't accept blaming Grandpa and moving on with their life. There's also a huge payday potentially involved here, so they can't just come out and disassociate with him until that's settled. Once this is over though, regardless the outcome, I can't imagine them having anything to do with him again. If they do, I'd really question the kind of people they are.

Of course it’s not a children’s play area, however, that lawyer used that in their defense the day after the tragedy. If I were that family and I was told there were no railings at all I’d believe it. Heck, even without a death to distract me, it takes me a couple of days to get the lay of the land on cruises. The splash area could be seen from the area where it happened.

 

[mjkacmom]

Except no one rational will buy that it's a children's play area. It's directly next to a bar and is one of the designated smoking areas on the ship. The children's play areas on Freedom are inside with solid windows. At this point, the family needs someone to blame and probably can't accept blaming Grandpa and moving on with their life. There's also a huge payday potentially involved here, so they can't just come out and disassociate with him until that's settled. Once this is over though, regardless the outcome, I can't imagine them having anything to do with him again. If they do, I'd really question the kind of people they are.

And there is probably tremendous costs they would have to pay their attorney if they dropped the suit. If they lose, they don’t owe him anything.

 

[Searc]

You honestly think this man's pain can be described as "feeling bad"???

And just like I told the last pp that said it, that last sentence is absolutely ridiculous. You are lumping him together with cold blooded murderers. He isn't a murderer.

Making a bad judgment and refusing to take responsibility does not = deserving jail time. If it did, half the 20 somethings in this country would be in jail right now. And unless you have had a conversation with the man without the lawyer, you don't have any idea what responsibility he is taking. Remember what you see, read and hear is only what the attorneys have told them they can say. We are privy to private conversations or his thoughts.

If that bad judgement kills someone you absolutely deserve jail time.

 

[luvsJack]

If that bad judgement kills someone you absolutely deserve jail time.

I don't see the world as that black and white. A whole lot of gray area in there.

 

[Princessclab]

Homocide is considered murder in our laws but there are different degrees described as such.
IMHO, the grandfather isn't really accepting responsibility for the child's death, but it appears the type of guilty plea says this is ok.

However, what does not admitting to the facts mean; what is he admitting to? Facts are facts and not opinions or subjective information, especially when evidence is very clear. What exactly did he admit to then?

Another question, where do we draw the line on punishment on negligent homocide? Does everyone get off with probation if they do not really admit the facts of the crime? Easy peasy way out IMHO.

 

[sam_gordon]

However, what does not admitting to the facts mean; what is he admitting to? Facts are facts and not opinions or subjective information, especially when evidence is very clear. What exactly did he admit to then?

There is a plea that basically you (accused) admit the evidence against you looks bad (and will probably lead to a conviction) so you accept that but still maintain you are innocent. I think this is similar.

Another question, where do we draw the line on punishment on negligent homocide? Does everyone get off with probation if they do not really admit the facts of the crime? Easy peasy way out IMHO.

The probation is part of the plea deal. "I'll admit guilt if you promise to just sentence me to probation."

 

[PRINCESS Sweet Pea]

This whole thing is so sad for everyone! I have been heartbroken! I do think that there are gray areas. That is just the way I am. And, the different categories and levels of sentencing do show this. I don't think that knowing the truth and holding somebody accountable when an innocent young child dies is some kind of black and white. I also do not think is that this was simply an accident or negligence. It isn't like the toddler climbed up and fell while grandpa was negligent or distracted and looking the other way. In the video that I had pulled up when this all came out that the family was suing the cruise line and all of that, it was the full uncut video. Not just clips or photos. The narrator voiced everything that was happening on the video, and the child was highlighted and it was zoomed in. The grandfather looked over that railing and out over that window for 8 seconds. Eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one... then he basically picked up the baby in one motion, and lifted her out and over that railing. Leaning fully over and out of the window, with nothing visible but the very back of his dark shirt, for like maybe thirty seconds. Thirty, twenty nine, twenty eight, twenty seven, twenty six, twenty five, twenty four, twenty three, twenty two, twenty one, twenty, nineteen, eighteen, seventeen sixteen, fifteen, fourteen, thirteen, twelve, eleven, ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two one. Nearly thirty full seconds. I was sitting there watching and thinking, after all of that time, he wants us to believe it was like an accident and he still didn't know that there was no glass there. And what about the wind coming thru, outside noise. The grandfather took this plea. So doesn't this mean that he will basically avoid all further questions and investigation and punishment. So maybe we will never really know the details and the full truth of how this all happened.

 

[sam_gordon]

So doesn't this mean that he will basically avoid all further questions and investigation and punishment. So maybe we will never really know the details and the full truth of how this all happened.

I would be surprised if he doesn't end up on the witness stand in the civil suit. I don't know if RCI can force him to testify, but how would the defense put on a case WITHOUT calling him?

 

[Princessclab]

There is a plea that basically you (accused) admit the evidence against you looks bad (and will probably lead to a conviction) so you accept that but still maintain you are innocent. I think this is similar.


The probation is part of the plea deal. "I'll admit guilt if you promise to just sentence me to probation."

Thanks for the reply but don't lots if accused people maintain that they are innocent as usually instructed by their lawyer?
Seems like a HUGE loophole in order to be able to plea out of a degree of homocide especially if you maintain you are innocent even though there is solid evidence you are guilty? Does not seem rationale yet allows people to get away with homocide.
I get what a plea deal is but I guess my question was really rhetorical because the line appears to be different for each person. I am pretty sure not everyone that pleads guilty to negligent homocide gets such a plea deal.

 

[sam_gordon]

Thanks for the reply but don't lots if accused people maintain that they are innocent as usually instructed by their lawyer?
Seems like a HUGE loophole in order to be able to plea out of a degree of homocide especially if you maintain you are innocent even though there is solid evidence you are guilty? Does not seem rationale yet allows people to get away with homocide.
I get what a plea deal is but I guess my question was really rhetorical because the line appears to be different for each person. I am pretty sure not everyone that pleads guilty to negligent homocide gets such a plea deal.

As I understand it, each plea deal IS different. The government doesn't have to offer a plea. The defendant doesn't have to accept. I'm sure the terms of the probation are also negotiable. As someone mentioned up thread, what benefit does it do to send the GF to prison?