Train could pass though Disney World

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

Trains don't work well as Weapons of Mass Destruction. A bomb might destroy a single car or two, but not the whole thing. A derailment at speed could be a problem, but it's really hard to get into the engine compartment. It just doesn't strike the same fear as a plane, which we know almost no one survives a crash. Trains just aren't the same if your goal is create terror. From a terrifying and logical point of view, a terrorist would be better off attacking a crowded station than the train itself.

And no, FBI and other government monitoring agencies, that is just a logical supposition, not a threat. I'm not evil or morally bankrupt, just analytical...

Mostly, I agree.

But a derailment doesn't take getting into the engine room. Derail a high speed train, we are talking a big problem.

 

[jknezek]

Mostly, I agree.

But a derailment doesn't take getting into the engine room. Derail a high speed train, we are talking a big problem.

That is true. It requires track issues. But the only way to make sure the train is traveling at high speed is to be in the engine room. Most track is inspected regularly and the only areas we have true high speed trains, across the northeast, are not in isolated areas where someone could destroy the track without notice. But that doesn't have much to do with security as far as boarding the train, where the conversation began.

 

[Farro]

Mostly, I agree.

But a derailment doesn't take getting into the engine room. Derail a high speed train, we are talking a big problem.

I know this is just a discussion, but I don't think the fear of terrorism should be a reason to not bring the US into the modern age of travel. (I know that's not what you meant, but someone will run with it! )

 

[halfpintpeggy]

Mostly, I agree.

But a derailment doesn't take getting into the engine room. Derail a high speed train, we are talking a big problem.

Nope. It certainly doesn't take getting into the engine room or destroying tracks as another poster stated to cause a derailment. Freight rail wife here. Someone mentioned "CSI" material on the tracks - yep, happens all the time. But getting back to the original discussion, I can see Disney getting behind this and eventually using it as an excuse to phase out Magical Express.

 

[snappy]

As someone who lives in relatively close proximity to many chemical plants accessed constantly by rail, the risk of a rail accident where hazardous materials are involved is very real and the subject of much local and federal, private and public concern and monitoring.

If Disney can cut out the ME expense of transport from the airport to onsite and sell it as a benefit guests would be willing to pay for themselves, it will happen. Bob Iger is definitely incentivized, as per the changes the company announced yesterday in his pay package.

https://deadline.com/2018/12/disney-bob-iger-compensation-fox-acquisition-1202512899/amp/

 

[middlechild]

Security may not be as visible as the checkpoint at an airport, but security is present. There are people concerned with rail safety on every train, in my opinion. As a previous poster stated, the payoff is low as compared to risk and potential benefit to move a cause forward, with respect to trains.
https://www.tsa.gov/news/releases/2016/05/27/tsa-helping-make-rail-travel-secure

On a different note, been watching for years the efforts to bring mass transit from Boston across the border into NH. The challenges are numerous to what appears to be a simple issue. Compounding this lack of cooperation between existing rail providers and new transportation options is the explosion in freight over the past decade or so. Explosion in this context meaning large year over year gains in tonnage shipped, not the previous context. Busy freight trains means no room for passenger cars.
https://www.aar.org/data-center/rail-traffic-data/

Putting passengers on a freight rail apparently is not simply swapping out the rolling stock. Upgrades to the track, and bed, and banking curves, signals, etc all need upgrades if the Northeast experience is any guide.

 

[Farro]

Security may not be as visible as the checkpoint at an airport, but security is present. There are people concerned with rail safety on every train, in my opinion. As a previous poster stated, the payoff is low as compared to risk and potential benefit to move a cause forward, with respect to trains.
https://www.tsa.gov/news/releases/2016/05/27/tsa-helping-make-rail-travel-secure

On a different note, been watching for years the efforts to bring mass transit from Boston across the border into NH. The challenges are numerous to what appears to be a simple issue. Compounding this lack of cooperation between existing rail providers and new transportation options is the explosion in freight over the past decade or so. Explosion in this context meaning large year over year gains in tonnage shipped, not the previous context. Busy freight trains means no room for passenger cars.
https://www.aar.org/data-center/rail-traffic-data/

Putting passengers on a freight rail apparently is not simply swapping out the rolling stock. Upgrades to the track, and bed, and banking curves, signals, etc all need upgrades if the Northeast experience is any guide.

To the bolded, of course it's going to be a major undertaking to rebuild the entire infrastructure. But it's long overdue and much needed.

 

[rideswithchrist]

This route used to be much more practical when there was a train that ran through San Antonio to Jacksonville Florida, but since hurricane Katrina the segment from New Orleans to Jacksonville no longer operates.

I wondered about that because I could have thought that when we looked it up last year, there was a bit more direct route. I am all for updating the rail system in the US and we would absolutely take a train if the framework was there. I mean, we just spent $60 per person to ride the "Polar Express" for 60 minutes haha.

 

[halfpintpeggy]

Security may not be as visible as the checkpoint at an airport, but security is present. There are people concerned with rail safety on every train, in my opinion. As a previous poster stated, the payoff is low as compared to risk and potential benefit to move a cause forward, with respect to trains.
https://www.tsa.gov/news/releases/2016/05/27/tsa-helping-make-rail-travel-secure

On a different note, been watching for years the efforts to bring mass transit from Boston across the border into NH. The challenges are numerous to what appears to be a simple issue. Compounding this lack of cooperation between existing rail providers and new transportation options is the explosion in freight over the past decade or so. Explosion in this context meaning large year over year gains in tonnage shipped, not the previous context. Busy freight trains means no room for passenger cars.
https://www.aar.org/data-center/rail-traffic-data/

Putting passengers on a freight rail apparently is not simply swapping out the rolling stock. Upgrades to the track, and bed, and banking curves, signals, etc all need upgrades if the Northeast experience is any guide.

Yes, certainly not as simple as many may think. There are many areas where passenger & freight are already set up share the same tracks - such as the area where we live near Philadelphia. It makes things tricky for sure, but it can work!

 

[MamaMaleficent2016]

I’m taking the Amtrak from Orlando to Tampa in January. I’m trying to take advantage of my company paying for my airfare from Ohio to Florida, for work,but still tack a couple of days at Disney on my trip. I’ve driven I-4 in the past and wasn’t interested in doing it again. The cost was great. &10 to $35 depending. It will be my first train experience so we’ll see what I think afterwards. I’ll use lyft/uber to get to the train station.

Many of my coworkers that live in Tampa have asked me to report back on my experience. They are very interested in this as an option. Based on those conversations, I think there would be interest in a train route that would stop at Disney.

I was actually hoping the train would run from MCO to TPA so I could utilize DME to get to the train but that’s not how it works today. Would be great if it did in the future.

 

[Farro]

Yes, certainly not as simple as many may think. There are many areas where passenger & freight are already set up share the same tracks - such as the area where we live near Philadelphia. It makes things tricky for sure, but it can work!

I don't think anyone here thinks it would be simple. It would be a major undertaking. Years of money and labor, but what a job creator. Great for the economy.

And great for the people.

(like I said, this is a subject I'm very interested in!)

 

[thorp8]

Without getting into the politics of funding other rail projects, I think the Tampa to Orlando line is nothing but a positive to Disney. I would absolutely assume they would do whatever they can to make a station. It's what... 90ish miles? Don't quote me, but I believe because the plan is to have this line dedicated (no freight and probably no street crossings) which means 125mph, maybe higher. That's something like 50 minutes, in comfort, no traffic, and you don't have to pay for Disney parking. The current Miami line costs are quite low, as in, less than Disney's parking costs. Not to mention, it could also be an option from Miami and even the MCO.

I don't think you can compare this project to any Amtrak line in America. The closest thing would be the Acela and higher speed expresses between Washington DC and Boston. But there wouldn't be nearly the volume of travelers.
High speed rail does work, but you have to have the right circumstances. As in, short to medium distances between areas of larger population. For better or worse, that actually makes it unlikely to benefit probably the majority of Americans, which is probably why it is always debated politically.

I don't think Virgin would get involved if they didn't think this was a viable option. And there will be fairly few negative impacts.

Couple other notes as I read through this thread.
The advantage of rail over buses is speed, capacity, and when done right, schedule.
Because of the train design, Disney could partner with Virgin to maybe "buy" a car. Instead of first class, it would be Disney class car for Cruise line guests, or magical express etc.

It's been mentioned before, but again, if not a tax dollar is going into this, I don't see what this is much of a debate. And Disney should be supporting this rather than let guests fly by their resort.

 

[mcjaco]

I'm genuinely curious curious -- why? What's the difference between a train and bus for you (for a short trips). I understand in long trips you can get up and walk on a train --- walk to a snack car or observation car (if the train has those), but on short trips what's the difference in a train or bus? You sit in a seat (both way bigger and more comfortable than an airline) and zone out for the duration of the trip. One vehicle takes a road, the other takes rails.

Trains are much better for the environment. They're way better in fuel efficiency.

 

[Mikey15]

I`m interested to see if a "Disney stop" can actually be a reality with the Brightline (higher-speed) route. It sounds like the discussions for the Orlando->Tampa route are including a stop at the Meadow Woods Sunrail station (saving Sunrail building a line to MCO), but then largely following the 417 and I-4 corridors. If that's the route, the closest Brightline would get to WDW is around Gaylord Palms / Waldorf Astoria Golf Course / close to Pop Century, or potentially further south, near the ESPN complex. They're not going to create a huge detour onto Disney property before heading back south to the I-4 corridor, I wouldn't think.

So, that in mind, how do Disney guests get from the theoretical 'Disney Brightline Station' to Disney parks and resorts? It would be great if they could get towards Disney Springs, maybe where Team Disney is now, and connect to Disney Transportation from there, but that's looking like an optimistic scenario. I'm wondering if it's more likely that Brightline bypasses WDW completely and instead they add another Sunrail track heading towards Disney from Meadow Woods? It could potentially help Disney employees get to work too if it's "commuter rail" instead of "express rail."

 

[Mr. Drauer]

I`m interested to see if a "Disney stop" can actually be a reality with the Brightline (higher-speed) route. It sounds like the discussions for the Orlando->Tampa route are including a stop at the Meadow Woods Sunrail station (saving Sunrail building a line to MCO), but then largely following the 417 and I-4 corridors. If that's the route, the closest Brightline would get to WDW is around Gaylord Palms / Waldorf Astoria Golf Course / close to Pop Century, or potentially further south, near the ESPN complex. They're not going to create a huge detour onto Disney property before heading back south to the I-4 corridor, I wouldn't think.

So, that in mind, how do Disney guests get from the theoretical 'Disney Brightline Station' to Disney parks and resorts? It would be great if they could get towards Disney Springs, maybe where Team Disney is now, and connect to Disney Transportation from there, but that's looking like an optimistic scenario. I'm wondering if it's more likely that Brightline bypasses WDW completely and instead they add another Sunrail track heading towards Disney from Meadow Woods? It could potentially help Disney employees get to work too if it's "commuter rail" instead of "express rail."

The Disney Station would be in the area of the World Drive Interchange on the westbound side. It is the same plan as the previously approved for the High Speed Rail project that Governor Scott took off the table in 2013. The preferred alternative is to follow the 417 within the median to I-4 and run the median of I-4 to Tampa. No way would it detour north or west to hit the area near the parks. Disney property extends all the way past Reedy Creek south of World Drive, which is why the story mentions them, though the proposal that Brightline submitted to FDOT does not include a station location.

FYI - Sunrail is only approved on the North-South route on existing CSX rail lines. They already partner with LYNX to provide east-west buses from all the stations.

 

[writerguyfl]

I've always wondered about the totally lack of security on trains.

I mean, I get that you can't fly trains into a building, but blowing up a train with hazardous material or even just the train, while in a town could cause some serious damage.

As other people have noted, you don't even need to be on a train to cause a disaster. Block the track and you're done. So, putting passengers through airport-style security would only stop suicide bombers.

Yes, certainly not as simple as many may think. There are many areas where passenger & freight are already set up share the same tracks - such as the area where we live near Philadelphia. It makes things tricky for sure, but it can work!

I'm right near the Brightline tracks in Fort Lauderdale. (I can faintly hear the horns from the trains about once an hour in each direction. In fact, I just heard it.) Here, they ended up triple tracking so that the passenger trains could run without affecting the freight trains.

Don't quote me, but I believe because the plan is to have this line dedicated (no freight and probably no street crossings) which means 125mph, maybe higher.

The Miami to West Palm Beach route that currently operating does share tracks with freight lines. But, as I noted above, they did add a parallel track to avoid delays.

I believe that a portion of the West Palm Beach to Orlando route would operate on the existing freight rail line that runs north/south. But, the section from the coast to Orlando is going to be new track. I believe that will run along State Road 528 (Beachline Expressway) to the Orlando International Airport (MCO).

Everything from MCO into the Tampa area would be dedicated track. Educated guess says that the route would share tracks (or at least run parallel to existing tracks) once it reaches Tampa. That would be the most cost-efficient method creating a new right-of-way would be very expensive in any urban area.

If Disney can cut out the ME expense of transport from the airport to onsite and sell it as a benefit guests would be willing to pay for themselves, it will happen.

I don't see this project as becoming a replacement for Disney's Magical Express. I don't think the frequency of trains will be enough. Currently, Brightline runs once per hour between Miami and West Palm Beach. Based on population densities, I would expect fewer trains between MCO and Tampa, not more.

I certainly could see Disney Cruise Line using the train to transport guests to various cruise ports.

Logistically, I'm not sure switching to train instead of buses is worth it for Disney. They would still need to transport guests from the train station at Disney World to the resorts.

Plus, it would be a pretty annoying experience for guests. Currently, it's a one-seat ride between the main terminal at the airport to the Disney Resort. Using the train makes it a three-seat ride. Guests will need to use the future airport transportation system to get from the main terminal to the intermodal terminal. Next, they'd board the train to get to the Disney station. Then, they'd have to board a bus to finally reach their Disney Resort.

As someone mentioned earlier, sometimes buses are best. Rail (including monorail) works great to move large groups of people between two points. But, when you are going from a hub (the airport) to multiple destinations (all the different Disney Resorts), buses tend to be the most efficient choice.

 

[joelkfla]

Guests will need to use the future airport transportation system to get from the main terminal to the intermodal terminal. Next, they'd board the train to get to the Disney station. Then, they'd have to board a bus to finally reach their Disney Resort.

The intermodal terminal opened earlier this year. It currently serves only the attached South Garage. Platforms for Brightline are in place, without tracks. I think there are also ones for SunRail.

Transportation to the existing land-side terminal is provided by a higher-speed version of the people movers that run between the terminal and the gates; IIRC the ride is less than 5 minutes. I wouldn't be surprised if OIA moved DME down there at some point in the future, especially after the nearby South Terminal opens.

 

[shocker]

Trains don’t sit in traffic...

Uh, ya they do. I sat 8 hours in a non-moving amtrak train due to a rainstorm and follow-up train traffic jam due to some tracks being closed. Passenger trains do not have priority over cargo trains...unfortunately.

 

[thorp8]

Uh, ya they do. I sat 8 hours in a non-moving amtrak train due to a rainstorm and follow-up train traffic jam due to some tracks being closed. Passenger trains do not have priority over cargo trains...unfortunately.

The Tampa to Orlando line would be Virgin USA dedicated line, freight trains would not run on this.

 

[mikebb]

I know this is an older thread, but bumping for the latest update. Brightline's future is not looking so bright after failed IPO:

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20190213/whats-next-for-brightline-after-ipo-fails

Between this and California's new governor cutting back their high-speed plans significantly, the picture looks bleak for any fans of rail travel in the US.