Train could pass though Disney World

I know this is an older thread, but bumping for the latest update. Brightline's future is not looking so bright after failed IPO:

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20190213/whats-next-for-brightline-after-ipo-fails

Between this and California's new governor cutting back their high-speed plans significantly, the picture looks bleak for any fans of rail travel in the US.
That's not really what happened. The original ballot measure sold the HSR as though it would only cost $33B and would go from LA to SF in 2.5 hours. The politicians then got their hands on the plans and took it along a more developed route so it could make several stops in their districts. That TRIPLED the cost to over $100B. Many cutbacks were made such as taking Sacramento and San Diego off of the route map and the cost went back down to only double, $66B. Projected route times were left out of the discussion. Meanwhile, including all of the money from the original ballot measure and the money they got from the Obama administration, there was only $10B available. Enter the new governor, he realized the situation for what it was and put a push to complete the only segment he had money for from Bakersfield to Madera - two places you will never find in the California Tourism Board advertisements... along a route that parallels an existing AMTRAK line. It is beyond dumb. If asked directly, the new governor will chide you for suggesting that the rail line NOT be built, and will insist that the plan is to complete the whole thing - that being Bakersfield to San Jose...according to him. Safe to say, despite the fact that they have already built the rail station just a short bus ride from Disneyland, you will never be able to take HSR to Disneyland from anywhere.

Which is a long way of saying...
Take a long look at what happened in California before pushing for any HSR project in Florida. There are LOTS of lessons to be learned here.
 
That's not really what happened. The original ballot measure sold the HSR as though it would only cost $33B and would go from LA to SF in 2.5 hours. The politicians then got their hands on the plans and took it along a more developed route so it could make several stops in their districts. That TRIPLED the cost to over $100B. Many cutbacks were made such as taking Sacramento and San Diego off of the route map and the cost went back down to only double, $66B. Projected route times were left out of the discussion. Meanwhile, including all of the money from the original ballot measure and the money they got from the Obama administration, there was only $10B available. Enter the new governor, he realized the situation for what it was and put a push to complete the only segment he had money for from Bakersfield to Madera - two places you will never find in the California Tourism Board advertisements... along a route that parallels an existing AMTRAK line. It is beyond dumb. If asked directly, the new governor will chide you for suggesting that the rail line NOT be built, and will insist that the plan is to complete the whole thing - that being Bakersfield to San Jose...according to him. Safe to say, despite the fact that they have already built the rail station just a short bus ride from Disneyland, you will never be able to take HSR to Disneyland from anywhere.

Which is a long way of saying...
Take a long look at what happened in California before pushing for any HSR project in Florida. There are LOTS of lessons to be learned here.

All that is very true, but has almost no parallels in the Brightline situation. Brightline, as I've mentioned before, is NOT HSR. It's fast rail, not high speed, and is therefore not subject to the special crossing regulations that caused the majority of the cost overruns in the California plans. In addition, Brightline already has right-of-way through almost the entire route that it is planned for; it's all on routes that existed pre-war, and that remain in railroad hands.

Of course, this is not to say that Brightline can't develop problems; any industry can, and particularly one that hasn't had a new private company started in decades. (Right now, the most likely issues to cause difficulty are ridership numbers relative to operational costs; Brightline is probably too posh to be sustained in its present style.) However, the particular issues that have crippled the California project are not likely to cause major problems in Florida.
 
Both the Fort Lauderdale and Miami stations are a relatively short hop to their cruise ports. Using the train to transport guests to/from a Disney Cruise out of Miami seems like an obvious move, to me.
How would that work? Do you mean somebody staying at WDW before or after a cruise would use the train to get to/from Miami/FLL? If so, wouldn't that require some type of bus transportation to get them from their WDW resort to the train station (perhaps the one being built at the airport?), then the train ride, and then another bus from the end of the train ride to the actual cruise port? With all that switching around, with the need to coordinate schedules, its going to take much longer to do that than just get on a bus at the Disney resort and get off at the ship.
 
How would that work? Do you mean somebody staying at WDW before or after a cruise would use the train to get to/from Miami/FLL? If so, wouldn't that require some type of bus transportation to get them from their WDW resort to the train station (perhaps the one being built at the airport?), then the train ride, and then another bus from the end of the train ride to the actual cruise port? With all that switching around, with the need to coordinate schedules, its going to take much longer to do that than just get on a bus at the Disney resort and get off at the ship.

My comment was based on the assumption that there is a train station on Walt Disney World property. While it may be a 3-seat ride, it would be a much better trip than a single bus ride (in my opinion).

Trains don't have traffic, which is something we have in abundance here in South Florida. And, with that traffic I'm not sure it would be a longer ride. If guests can check their luggage at the station and have it delivered to their hotel room or stateroom (depending on which direction they are going), I don't think people would care much about the short hops at the beginning and end.

By the way, Brightline already markets easy connections to the cruise ports using their local partner (Lyft). They will even handle the luggage from the train to the car:
https://offers.gobrightline.com/offer/cruise-ports/
 


How would that work? Do you mean somebody staying at WDW before or after a cruise would use the train to get to/from Miami/FLL? If so, wouldn't that require some type of bus transportation to get them from their WDW resort to the train station (perhaps the one being built at the airport?), then the train ride, and then another bus from the end of the train ride to the actual cruise port? With all that switching around, with the need to coordinate schedules, its going to take much longer to do that than just get on a bus at the Disney resort and get off at the ship.
To flip your comment around, WDW is more likely to provide a bus connection to a train station near WDW than one to the Port of Miami. Or if the station is at the airport it's just part of the Magical Express. And getting from the Port of Miami to the Miami train station is super simple, quick, and cheap - take a cab/Uber/Lyft.

I just went through this over President's Week trying to integrate my 5 night DCL Marvel cruise out of Miami with a 2 day stay at WDW - it just never quite worked. Too much time to drive through traffic and rental car prices for a Miami pickup and Orlando drop off were insane. Similarly, once I added in the 2 hour buffer to get through security flying didn't made a lot of sense either. Worst of all, the open jaw and/or three leg airfares were crazy.

Visiting WDW from Miami via train makes a lot of sense - too far to drive, too close to fly (particularly at the fares I was seeing). Similarly, I can see Latin American visitors doing a Miami cruise before their WDW stay (actually I think I *saw* many of them) since they have to fly in/out of Miami anyway.

But really who knows? DCL is basically doubling their fleet over the next few years and making Miami a year round home port. So maybe they will start running the 'Tragical Express' to/from Miami.
 
My family and I (6 of us) live in the north part of Orlando. We took a DCL cruise out of Miami more than a year ago. We drove down to Miami and took us around 4 hours to get down there. It cost us 1 tank of gas. Based on what I have read in this thread, the "fast rail" is slightly faster than driving a car (comparing when they are moving).

So I look at it this way:
Car:
- Cost - $40 for gas (each way) + parking at Miami port ($8 a day x 7 days = $56) = GRAND TOTAL $136
- Other - The convenience of drive around Miami where ever we want. Plus once we start driving, we go directly to the cruise port
Train:
- Cost - Free parking at rail station? + $22 per person from miami to west palm x 3 (because west palm to miami is only 1/3 the way) x 6 people = $396 (it looks like its the same price for one way vs round trip) + uber from train station to cruise ship and back? = so way more that $400
- Other - Once I get to the train station, have to wait for the train and once I get Miami, have to wait for uber

Advantage = car, because its cheaper, and faster (since I don't have to wait on the train and uber).
 
I don't think anyone is saying the train is going to be the right option for every person/family/group. Having an additional option is a positive, as far as I'm concerned.

Of Florida's 126 million tourists, over 14 million are international. Given the hassles of driving in a foreign country and the general acceptable of rail travel elsewhere (particularly in Europe), I'd bet many of those people would gladly pay a little extra to take the train.

Tourism Statistics: https://www.visitflorida.org/resources/research/

And given where talking about Disney vacations, I doubt that people paying $$$$ for their Disney World/Disney Cruiseline package are going to bother going through the hassle of renting a car to say $100 (or whatever).

Overall, I'm actually confused why people seem intent on labeling this is as a bad idea. Brightline is being privately funded. If it gets up and running, you'll still be able to use all forms of transportation that currently exist. This is just another option.
 


My family and I (6 of us) live in the north part of Orlando....Car:
- Cost - $40 for gas (each way) + parking at Miami port ($8 a day x 7 days = $56) = GRAND TOTAL $136
- Other - The convenience of driving around Miami....
Yours in an interesting situation. I'd thought about Miami residents and visitors using a train to go to WDW and WDW visitors wanting to go to Miami...but not Orlando residents going on a cruise out of the Port of Miami. And so I offer a pair of comments...

The first is that the phrase, "The convenience of driving around Miami....", definitely got a chuckle. We're relatively frequent visitors to Miami and the only time we've rented a car at MIA we headed west to the Everglades and Gulf Coast then dropped it off in Miami before our 3 day stay in the city.

The second is that you're ignoring the cost of putting around 500 miles onto your SUV/van. The real per mile cost varies wildly depending on the cost of your vehicle, its fuel efficiency, and local gas prices, but the nationwide/all vehicle standard used by the IRS for 2019 is 58 cents a mile. So the cost of driving is more in the range of
(500 miles * 0.58 = $290 + $56 for parking = ) $346.

In all fairness, you're probably underestimating the cost on the train side as well. There aren't a lot of train stations with free parking so you would probably pay a few dollars a day there (or for Uber/Lyft to/from the Orlando station).

Obviously, everyone's choices will be different and I am in no way denigrating yours. But I know if I could have taken a cab to the Miami Brightline station and ended up in WDW 3-4 hours later it would have been very tempting.
 
Some news!

https://wdwnt.com/2019/04/virgin-tr...orlando-to-include-walt-disney-world-station/
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/new...anson-talks-virgin-trains-20190404-story.html

As recently as Tuesday, Virgin Train officials had emphasized that the company was in negotiations with several landowners in the area of the region’s theme parks for a station site.

Goddard said, however, that Virgin Trains last year signed a letter of intent with Disney.

“We’ve had an excellent relationship with Walt Disney World,” Goddard said. “They are big supporters of our project.”

Goddard spoke by phone after touring Virgin Trains in South Florida with Sir Richard Branson, founder of the venture-capital Virgin Group, which last year partnered with the owner of the train system previously known as Brightline.
 
This paragraph from the Fort Lauderdale newspaper version of this story caught my eye:

The company wants to add a stop at PortMiami to provide a link to Branson's Virgin Voyages cruise line, which is slated to start operating next year. It also intends to build a station at Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport to serve cruise passengers sailing out of Port Everglades.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/tr...ns-launch-20190404-story.html#nt=oft12aH-1li3

If they manage that, it makes getting from Disney World to Miami for a cruise much simpler.

And the stop at the Fort Lauderdale airport (FLL) makes sense, too. The long-term plan for the airport already includes a multi-modal center that will sit above the tracks that Brightline/Virgin Trains currently use. One of the future goals of the County (which operates the airport and Port Everglades) is to create a monorail or automated tram that connect the airport with the cruise terminals at Port Everglades. So, ten years from now, it might be possible to get off a cruise ship in Fort Lauderdale or Miami and get to Disney World without getting on a single road. That's exciting to me.
 
I am wondering how much Disney really has their hands in this. I have a feeling it is a little more than we all think.
 
I am wondering how much Disney really has their hands in this. I have a feeling it is a little more than we all think.
I could see Disney wanting this as a way to help promote park-to-cruise or cruise-to-park vacations.

I doubt they really care if it is an easier way for people to get to their property from the airport. They already have a pretty good system for that. Rail to Disney won't replace Magic Express. Magic Express is more flexible and can drop people right off at their hotel. A train won't do that .. and will likely run a LOT less than Magical Express buses.

Now if there is a train station to WDW, it could (eventually - by connecting to other train routes) be an alternative to get to Disney for those who traditionally drive or fly short distances, but it would have to be as cheap as driving or cheaper than flying -- which I doubt since trains (like planes) charge per person.
 
One advantage I see with all this is I think it relieves some stress on MCO. I feel like that airport is now a bottleneck for the Orlando tourist industry. I think the train will allow others into orlando from other international airports.
I think vacation traffic to florida is increasing along with WDW's increase. I think many people are now adding Disney as part of a greater florida vacation. Many airlines partner with train service, and I see this as being an extension of that concept. I think it will bring in more European traffic via the Virgin connection.

My thinking on this is WDW has really been upping the park visits as of late. They are expanding the capacity in the parks, they and others are adding beds. If you are going to attract more people to the area you need to be able to get them there. Traffic in the area doesn't have a positive reputation. So adding more options that help you avoid renting/driving a car I think will be well received beyond the economics of it.

From Disney's end, I think it's pretty low risk, with significant gains.
I think years ago, they may have been concerned that it would allow people out of the bubble. I think they now know that they need to encourage more folks in, as they end up with a percentage of every visitor's spending.
What do they give up on this, some land that wasn't suitable for high rise construction?

The bigger question for me is where would the station go? and what other transportation options in WDW would connect to it. I have to believe if it's in some weird corner with only bus traffic accessing it, it will not be as successful. I think if you can drop it into an area of activity, you'd be golden.
 
This is so premature. The language used even by Virgin is plan, propose, in negotiations, etc. The portion from Miami to OIA has actually been moving forward, and permitting is underway. Getting from OIA to Meadow Woods is something that can happen pretty easily since the tracks exist now, though use agreements or parcel acquisition has not happened. Getting from there to Disney and then Tampa is still something that has not gone past the proposal stage. There are not train tracks, parcels and ROW have not been acquired yet, and no agreements have been finalized with FDOT as the plan is to run down the ROW of SR 417 to I-4. The proposed station at WDW from the Brightline Proposal would be at World Drive and I-4 just across from Celebration and the High School. None of this portion has been submitted for permitting yet, as they cannot proceed until they have either parcel ownership or agreements in place for use agreements and easements. To say this would be able to happen at the same time as the airport is extremely pie in the sky.
 
This is so premature. The language used even by Virgin is plan, propose, in negotiations, etc. The portion from Miami to OIA has actually been moving forward, and permitting is underway. Getting from OIA to Meadow Woods is something that can happen pretty easily since the tracks exist now, though use agreements or parcel acquisition has not happened. Getting from there to Disney and then Tampa is still something that has not gone past the proposal stage. There are not train tracks, parcels and ROW have not been acquired yet, and no agreements have been finalized with FDOT as the plan is to run down the ROW of SR 417 to I-4. The proposed station at WDW from the Brightline Proposal would be at World Drive and I-4 just across from Celebration and the High School. None of this portion has been submitted for permitting yet, as they cannot proceed until they have either parcel ownership or agreements in place for use agreements and easements. To say this would be able to happen at the same time as the airport is extremely pie in the sky.
Not surprising...
 
My takeaway from the articles is that (as reported previously in the thread) Brightline struggled securing funding for this next leg, but Virgin's involvement is bringing in the funding necessary to proceed.

Negotiations and a letter of intent aren't final deals and permits; I don't think anyone's saying that. They're putting on the PR to put a positive outlook on the project as still alive, moving forward, feel comfortable with Virgin Trains as hey, this is coming.
 
My takeaway from the articles is that (as reported previously in the thread) Brightline struggled securing funding for this next leg, but Virgin's involvement is bringing in the funding necessary to proceed.

Negotiations and a letter of intent aren't final deals and permits; I don't think anyone's saying that. They're putting on the PR to put a positive outlook on the project as still alive, moving forward, feel comfortable with Virgin Trains as hey, this is coming.


Actually what happened was no one would buy stock in an IPO, but unrated tax exempt bonds were able to get funded. It had little to do with Virgin, who has chipped in very little money but just enough to get it branded. But that happened before the equity IPO failed. As a financial professional, I can tell you there is massive demand for tax free bonds right now, so getting this funded that way was not a problem, despite the issuer and business model risk. It does create bigger problems for the company down the line, as they now have huge amounts of debt. Had they been able to finance through an equity IPO they would have been better off. No debt to repay and no coupon payments.

This company has a very large uphill climb to make because that IPO failed. The municipal bonds buy them time to make progress. But it's a huge medium term issue to solve when those coupon payments and eventual 1.75 billion dollars of principal come due.
 
The municipal bonds buy them time to make progress. But it's a huge medium term issue to solve when those coupon payments and eventual 1.75 billion dollars of principal come due.
That's what bankruptcy is for...it got the Eurotunnel built!
 
That's what bankruptcy is for...it got the Eurotunnel built!


Well... sort of. The Eurotunnel got built because there was no alternative. It had to be reorganized after bankruptcy or the money was just sunk. But no one wants a 3/4 finished hole under the English Channel. So you find a way to punish the original investors for having bad estimates on what it was really going to cost, find people to front some new money, and finish up believing in the business model.

Brightline is different. If it goes under it will be mainly because it is actually not working. Not because the infrastructure cost more than expected. Most of the infrastructure is already there. They aren't laying too much new track, not yet anyway, so if they go under, that existing track just goes back to its prior purpose and there is little incentive to double down on something that already failed. So this company is going to have to prove itself some kind of going concern to enter and emerge from bankruptcy if that should prove necessary.

That's the thing, Brightline or Virgin or whatever isn't really doing anything unique. And they are mostly using existing lines and stations so far. So if it goes under, there is nothing there but the engines and cars, which could be liquidated. It would be hard to get someone to dump a new pile of money in when the model has already failed.

The Eurotunnel was something new. It had to be completed before we knew if it would succeed or fail. That allows for a lot more leeway during bankruptcy negotiations. Plus, the business case was better. High speed passenger and freight rail, plus passenger and freight roads, work in Europe. Non commuter passenger rail in the U.S. is notoriously unsuccessful outside of the NE Corridor. Amtrak is a money pit and it has almost no hope of ever not being a money pit. Even the NE Corridor is going to be problematic as long delayed repairs and needed improvements are long overdue. It's on borrowed time and gets worse with every day the Gateway project remains stalled.
 

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