Why do you own DVC if you hate Disney?

Wow bah-humbug is what I say to this. I for one am very glad there was a Walt Disney who had the vision to create what we now know as WDW. I know he died before his dream was fully realized but if it wasn't for him we wouldn't have all the wonderful things that have come out of Walt Disney's dreams and imagination. If it was so easy we would all be able to achieve what he did. We all know he was human and not perfect, who among us is?

I don't like the reference to "white middle class customers who could afford Disney". I grew up watching "The Wonderful World of Disney" which instilled my love of Disney, this was not viewing just for "white middle class people" anyone was able to watch if they so desired. My family wasn't well to do by any means, my father worked hard and was very careful with his money. My mother made our clothes and I learned how to sew at an early age and made my own clothes when I was in high school because I couldn't afford to buy clothes ready made at the department stores. One year we did a cross country trip, camped most of the way. We were a family of 6, my youngest sister had downs syndrome, god bless my mother. My only request was to go to Disneyland. My wish was granted and we went, we spend one whole day, it was great, I lover every minute of it but I would have liked to spend two or three days but that wasn't in the cards due to money (I'm sure) and time. How many among us could achieve what he did with his limited education, don't put him down for not being able to sign his own name. Kids today aren't being taught cursive, guess they won't be able to sign their name either...Sorry if this is coming off as mean spirited but this post just struck a nerve in me.
Nice post...

What does it have to do with the thread?
 
I'm not a Disney "hater", but I have become less of a Disney "lover". We have been DVC members for over 20 years and I have seen huge changes. It has become perfectly clear to me that Disney is not that into us old-time DVCers anymore. They would rather have the "once in a lifetime" guest with open wallets than stingy old me. There is a constant flow of them ... filling the resorts at rack rate, eating on the DDP and shopping until they drop. Last trip, other than food, my purchases were 2 pins over 8 days.

I'm not saying that DVC hasn't been good to me. It has. There is no way I would bring myself to pay for a WDW trip without DVC. I pay $1900 a year in dues and that gets me 8 days in October (3 days BLT + 5 days BWV) plus 12 days in January (5 days AKV-Concierge + 7 days BWV) with a few points left over. My average cost is about $87 per night for the 273 points I used. I can't stay in the All Stars for that amount. However, I think I'm done for a while after this next October trip. The escalating cost of passes (well above inflation), the shameless upsells, and the ridiculous food pricing make even a "cheap" stay in a DVC resort expensive. I budget about $125 per day just for food and we *rarely* eat at TS restaurants.

I have come to a place in my life that I am soured at the constant money grabs and I would rather spend my money somewhere else. But, I'm not ready to sell quite yet. My DD is 20 and may want to use the points in the near future. I can also rent out points to cover my dues and also make enough money for a very nice vacation somewhere else. I am aware that my BWV points will start to lose their in the next 10 years with an expiration date of 2042 but until then I think I will let it ride and plan on fewer trips.

I'm right there with you! We are in contract now and close to closing on our contract which we sold pretty quickly. We sold, made a profit and still benefited from almost 15 years of use. I think that's a great deal!

However, we are feeling at this point that the cost of the passes plus the monthly dues, could get us close to enjoying other places in the world. I do love Epcot, but the real world is out there and we want to see it.

Do I hate Disney? No, but not loving Disney World as much as I used to.
 


So here is one place I will definitely disagree with you. Disney is one of the more environmental friendly companies out there. Oh - don't get me wrong - they tout it and use it to their advantage and to make money, for sure. But they go further than is required by any law or regulation to be environmentally friendly. EVERY Disney resort maintains or exceeds the requirements to be a Florida Green Lodging hotel. Walt Disney World is an EPA Energy Star Partner. They contribute a large amount of resources to the Disney Wildlife Conservation Fund and of course the Disney Nature series. They now own National Geographic as well (through FOX). DCL was one of the few (the only?) cruise line to get an A rating I believe on environmental policy and conservation efforts. They cut emissions in 2018 by over 40% and diverted over 50% of their waste. They built a HUGE solar farm (and are building a bigger one?). Nearly 1/3rd of WDW is wildlife conservation.

Is this all "altruistic"? Surely not. Many of these save them money. For example, turning off the lights saves electricity which also saves them money. Upgrading vehicles saves on fuel costs. All of these policies do - in some way - give back. However, they are not all cost positive (such as the straws). That isn't to say Disney doesn't use the PR to their advantage. Of course they do (and I would, too). However, when you stand Disney up to similar companies, they do more than the average to maintain the environment and/or educate the public (which is just as important).

Do a little research before you spout nonsense.
https://www.thewaltdisneycompany.com/environment/https://www.arcgis.com/apps/MapJournal/index.html?appid=d8ab06e289194a368de7da28cea25b45https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/09/business/energy-environment/the-magic-kingdom-is-going-green.htmlhttps://www.tripsavvy.com/disney-environmentally-friendly-world-1514267https://www.cheatsheet.com/culture/how-green-is-disney.html/https://www.forbes.com/sites/edfene...orld-is-betting-on-clean-energy/#4b903c686722
That green curtain often has non-green things behind it.
 
Wow bah-humbug is what I say to this. I for one am very glad there was a Walt Disney who had the vision to create what we now know as WDW. I know he died before his dream was fully realized but if it wasn't for him we wouldn't have all the wonderful things that have come out of Walt Disney's dreams and imagination. If it was so easy we would all be able to achieve what he did. We all know he was human and not perfect, who among us is?

I don't like the reference to "white middle class customers who could afford Disney". I grew up watching "The Wonderful World of Disney" which instilled my love of Disney, this was not viewing just for "white middle class people" anyone was able to watch if they so desired. My family wasn't well to do by any means, my father worked hard and was very careful with his money. My mother made our clothes and I learned how to sew at an early age and made my own clothes when I was in high school because I couldn't afford to buy clothes ready made at the department stores. One year we did a cross country trip, camped most of the way. We were a family of 6, my youngest sister had downs syndrome, god bless my mother. My only request was to go to Disneyland. My wish was granted and we went, we spend one whole day, it was great, I lover every minute of it but I would have liked to spend two or three days but that wasn't in the cards due to money (I'm sure) and time. How many among us could achieve what he did with his limited education, don't put him down for not being able to sign his own name. Kids today aren't being taught cursive, guess they won't be able to sign their name either...Sorry if this is coming off as mean spirited but this post just struck a nerve in me.

Wow, I'm sorry if I offended you. Disney was a marketing genius. Everyone with a TV (which wasn't everyone - many people did not have TVs in the 1950s and 60s) could access Disney on TV and everyone with enough money for a picture show (which again, wasn't everyone when Disney was alive - especially in the segregated South) could enjoy his movies. As people of color are more likely to live in poverty, few black families (or Hispanic or American Indian families) got to experience Disney in the 50s and 60s. But they were entry vehicles for stuff animals, watches, lunchboxes - and eventually vacations. Disney was very much a white middle class phenomenon in the 1950s when Disneyland opened - not at all accessible to the masses. I'm sorry if that part of history is something you don't wish to face. That doesn't lessen my own enjoyment of the product and I'm sorry if I lessened yours.
 
Wow, I'm sorry if I offended you. Disney was a marketing genius. Everyone with a TV (which wasn't everyone - many people did not have TVs in the 1950s and 60s) could access Disney on TV and everyone with enough money for a picture show (which again, wasn't everyone when Disney was alive - especially in the segregated South) could enjoy his movies. As people of color are more likely to live in poverty, few black families (or Hispanic or American Indian families) got to experience Disney in the 50s and 60s. But they were entry vehicles for stuff animals, watches, lunchboxes - and eventually vacations. Disney was very much a white middle class phenomenon in the 1950s when Disneyland opened - not at all accessible to the masses. I'm sorry if that part of history is something you don't wish to face. That doesn't lessen my own enjoyment of the product and I'm sorry if I lessened yours.

Not just that, but Walt himself - although an amazing visionary - was no angel. Disney likes to gloss him over a lot (and who wouldn't). By his own request, Roy is often minimized as well (but he shouldn't be as without Roy, there would be no Walt Disney Corp). Even if we assume many of the rumors about him and FBI or similar rumors are false, we know for a fact that Walt was often angry, mistreated his workers, underpaid them, and was sexist (or at least didn't believe in equality). Arguably many of these were products of the environment and social order at the time as well - so you can blame Walt himself or blame society.

In either case, I don't have rose colored glasses (well... maybe they are slightly pinkish). Walt himself had faults. Roy had faults. Don't even get me started on Little Miss Abigail. The company has lots of faults.

However, my question was not (as some here are reading it) "Why do you invest or own and visit a company has parts that are okay and parts that are not okay and is kind of so-so, but it does have some good things that you like or your kids love so you overlook the bad things?". My question was geared toward those who pop onto threads consistently with comments like "Disney is a terrible brand" and "Disney is an evil corporation" yet still own and post about their 1000 points of DVC goodness.
 


That green curtain often has non-green things behind it.

Of course it does. I made the comment in my own thread that some of those I find just plain silly. Disney has on their green page that one of the initiates they take is to turn off the lights at night. Really? Cause I have been doing that at home for 45 years. I don't do it to be green. I do it because my electric bill thanks me. I don't for one moment believe they shut off some of the lights at night to be environmentally friendly, but rather because it saves them money.

They do things that do not make them money either (like the straws) and the WCF which they dump millions into. I am certain - COMPLETELY CERTAIN - that Disney's crack marketing team can put a dollar amount on the PR that comes from those commitments. Probably sorted by country, social status, age, or hair color. I am sure there are a number of factors that weigh into every one of those which include things like shareholder support, marketing, movie collaboration, tax incentives, brand, and 1000 other factors.

Heck - I myself made a proposal to Disney that would have given them a unique blend of technology and would have had a nice "wow factor" and added some good guest experience, but it had the downside of moving Disney into a market that was surrounded at the time by bad press. Their answer was (paraphrased) "It's cool, and we would love to do it, but we don't want to take the risk on our brand by associating with that particular market given the present environment".

The point is that Disney makes very calculated moves and I am sure the Green initiates they do are every bit as calculated. HOWEVER, they do choose to take those moves. They could put their considerable bulk toward other things that generate PR as well. There is always a choice on whether you invest in A or B. Somewhere up there in those board rooms, there is a conscious choice that if someone brings up a Green Initiate that is dollar friendly, it gets a fair shake. In today's Corporate America, that is what a green company is. It's not a company that squanders it's profits away on Green, but rather a company that entertains dollar neutral or dollar friendly proposals that also happen to be green over other other proposals of similar value.
 
Wow, I'm sorry if I offended you. Disney was a marketing genius. Everyone with a TV (which wasn't everyone - many people did not have TVs in the 1950s and 60s) could access Disney on TV and everyone with enough money for a picture show (which again, wasn't everyone when Disney was alive - especially in the segregated South) could enjoy his movies. As people of color are more likely to live in poverty, few black families (or Hispanic or American Indian families) got to experience Disney in the 50s and 60s. But they were entry vehicles for stuff animals, watches, lunchboxes - and eventually vacations. Disney was very much a white middle class phenomenon in the 1950s when Disneyland opened - not at all accessible to the masses. I'm sorry if that part of history is something you don't wish to face. That doesn't lessen my own enjoyment of the product and I'm sorry if I lessened yours.

You certainly haven't lessened my enjoyment of Disney but thanks for the apology. This will be my last comment about how good or bad a man WD was, I don't want to have this tread closed down because of me. In my opinion Wald Disney he was an amazing man, not perfect but none of us are. We all have "skeletons in our closets" if we are honest with ourselves and look deep enough. Also everything else that was on TV or at the picture shows I'm guessing wasn't accessible to people living in poverty but we aren't putting them down. Its called progress, without it we would stand still and nothing would ever get better. There will always be the haves and the have nots and everything in between. Nobody ever said that life was going to easy or fair.

Even today not everyone has a TV either by choice or because they can't afford one, that isn't and wasn't WD's fault. Picture shows? I didn't get to go to very many, again my dad was very careful with his money and that was a frivolous use of funds (we were saving for vacation). Your right Disneyland wasn't accessible to the masses, we had to drive all the way from NJ to CA for a one day visit. There is no way we could afford airfare for six people. I'm very thankful to my father and mother for the wonderful family we had and that they were willing to sacrifice in other areas so we could have that one day at Disneyland.

I'm sorry that you think I haven't faced "that part of our history", I have. I guess all through time life and the world hasn't been fair. It probably never will be fair, we all have our version of fair just like some people have their own version of the truth. I think the sooner we all understand that the sooner each of us can work to rise up out of whatever situation we feel isn't fair for us, perceived or otherwise
Again I don't like to be confrontational but I have to come to the defense of someone I hold in high regard, Walt Disney.

I for one hope that I never get so jaded that I don't enjoy WDW, maybe old age will the thing that stops it for me. I'm working very hard to make sure that doesn't happen anytime soon.

I hope you all have a very magical day. pixiedust:
 
Not just that, but Walt himself - although an amazing visionary - was no angel. Disney likes to gloss him over a lot (and who wouldn't). By his own request, Roy is often minimized as well (but he shouldn't be as without Roy, there would be no Walt Disney Corp). Even if we assume many of the rumors about him and FBI or similar rumors are false, we know for a fact that Walt was often angry, mistreated his workers, underpaid them, and was sexist (or at least didn't believe in equality). Arguably many of these were products of the environment and social order at the time as well - so you can blame Walt himself or blame society.

In either case, I don't have rose colored glasses (well... maybe they are slightly pinkish). Walt himself had faults. Roy had faults. Don't even get me started on Little Miss Abigail. The company has lots of faults.

However, my question was not (as some here are reading it) "Why do you invest or own and visit a company has parts that are okay and parts that are not okay and is kind of so-so, but it does have some good things that you like or your kids love so you overlook the bad things?". My question was geared toward those who pop onto threads consistently with comments like "Disney is a terrible brand" and "Disney is an evil corporation" yet still own and post about their 1000 points of DVC goodness.

I agree there do seem to be people who lurk, post and own DVC who seem to have a low opinion of Disney. I don't know why they are here but I guess it is good to get other points of view, it can help us to understand where others are coming from and maybe help us understand their point of view.

I for one love Disney, I always have and I hope I always do. That is why I'm here and why I own DVC. JMHO pixiedust:
 
Not just that, but Walt himself - although an amazing visionary - was no angel. Disney likes to gloss him over a lot (and who wouldn't). By his own request, Roy is often minimized as well (but he shouldn't be as without Roy, there would be no Walt Disney Corp). Even if we assume many of the rumors about him and FBI or similar rumors are false, we know for a fact that Walt was often angry, mistreated his workers, underpaid them, and was sexist (or at least didn't believe in equality). Arguably many of these were products of the environment and social order at the time as well - so you can blame Walt himself or blame society.

In either case, I don't have rose colored glasses (well... maybe they are slightly pinkish). Walt himself had faults. Roy had faults. Don't even get me started on Little Miss Abigail. The company has lots of faults.

However, my question was not (as some here are reading it) "Why do you invest or own and visit a company has parts that are okay and parts that are not okay and is kind of so-so, but it does have some good things that you like or your kids love so you overlook the bad things?". My question was geared toward those who pop onto threads consistently with comments like "Disney is a terrible brand" and "Disney is an evil corporation" yet still own and post about their 1000 points of DVC goodness.

I don't know that I've ever seen any poster that I'm aware of that is a DVC owner state "Disney is a terrible brand" unless they had just sold or were selling. The rest being relayed in this thread is pretty much the majority that I see or even post and that's why you're getting those replies. The ones who dislike Disney don't own.

Disney is an "evil corporation" (I see greedy vs evil and they are not the same but so be it) still is not stating that you don't like Disney product or WDW. It falls into the not like various decisions.
 
I obviously couldn’t put it any better than Bing’s piece which someone from Disney should print off and decide how to use internally.
For me, whilst the over charging for add-ons and up-sells, the drastically increasing food prices etc were an irritation, the lock off premium debacle was when my skepticism went into overdrive. This is because at this point the trust went and I thought we were being taken advantage of just to screw as much money out of us as possible. I got even angrier when I saw the DVC promotional video that clearly declared points could never go up, and saw all the stories of people saying they had been told this by guides. Suddenly we had this fundamental aspect of the product being tossed in the bin, with the laughable excuse that 1 beds (which is what I book no problem at 7 months) went quickly and thus justified increasing in points.
This distrust has been reinforced by things like points resale restrictions. I now have a thought ‘What will they try next’ so feel compelled to vent online when I see more of the same.
But as Bing says I love the core product on the ground. I’ve bought it, why should I sell. If I bought a house with managed facilities, I wouldn’t just sell up if the management company began conducting itself in a different manner- why should I? I’d fight back.
 
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Also, a lot of people (possibly myself included) appear here as very negative, but just in hope to be helpful for others.
People who stumble in DVC while on vacation hear how DVC is good by guides (sales people) or maybe hear a friend talking about how much they like it or have joined a Facebook group where everything look wonderful and downers are kicked out.
Then they come here and they post something like booking any resort is easy or that financing DVC they can save 50% over vacation costs and many of use feel it's important to give those people the right information. This means listing all the bad, or not very good, things that no one ever told them. Once you do this 100 times you may start appear bitter vs the product.
 
I have posted earlier in this thread, but just to be clear...
I do not hate Disney. However, sometime I get angry because I feel management is taking a great company and ruining it. WDW has sooo much potential, and it makes me angry when they cheapen the product. That could be anything from closing the Adventurers Club to gouging ticket prices.
 
I do not hate Disney. However, sometime I get angry because I feel management is taking a great company and ruining it. WDW has sooo much potential, and it makes me angry when they cheapen the product.

My cousin’s husband and I were just talking about this.

He grew up in FL. He and my cousin courted there. They have loved Disney. And now they see the changes and the prices going up so insanely (his stepdad has receipts for a stay at contemporary that would be the equivalent of less than $200 per night if it had only increased with inflation), making it so hard for them to visit like they did just ten years ago, and it makes them SAD.

Sadness that you can’t go like you used to, because the prices have risen so much, can lead to anger, but it’s still sadness at the heart of it.
 
My cousin’s husband and I were just talking about this.

He grew up in FL. He and my cousin courted there. They have loved Disney. And now they see the changes and the prices going up so insanely (his stepdad has receipts for a stay at contemporary that would be the equivalent of less than $200 per night if it had only increased with inflation), making it so hard for them to visit like they did just ten years ago, and it makes them SAD.

Sadness that you can’t go like you used to, because the prices have risen so much, can lead to anger, but it’s still sadness at the heart of it.
Indeed. Sad may have been a better descriptor. I am truly sad to see the changes that have taken place over the years.
 
I agree there do seem to be people who lurk, post and own DVC who seem to have a low opinion of Disney. I don't know why they are here but I guess it is good to get other points of view, it can help us to understand where others are coming from and maybe help us understand their point of view.

I for one love Disney, I always have and I hope I always do. That is why I'm here and why I own DVC. JMHO pixiedust:

I'm probably one :)

I lurk, am kind of fed up with Disney parks, as a whole, but still go.

I love the resorts, love some of the long time cast members, but to us, a WDW vacation just isn't the same.

We purchased DVC when our daughter was about 6. Since then, we've taken many many amazing Disney vacations (well over 50). We've had so much unplanned Magic that really made a WDW trip a cherished experience. But.....we've also watched a dramatic change.

We're now empty-nesters and while we do still love most of the resorts, we have no need to go in to overly crowded parks, where the only Magic that happens is when you pay for it. We have no need to walk around like lemmings, waiting for the next FP or dining time. The lines are too long...The food quality has gone way down hill, the merchandise is dreadful and the Cast Members just don't exemplify Disney that they used to. (The big exception to that are the Vero CM's....they're outstanding.)

We still have DVC points and want to use them, but our vacations are very different than they once were. We sold our BWV points and half of out SSR points and bought Vero, because Vero still feels like the Disney that we once knew. We used to HAVE to stay at BW or BC, be in the parks nearly every day and made ADR's and FP ressies. Now, we're kind of like "Been there...done that" and we stay away from the parks (Usually at SSR). We eat where we feel like it outside of the parks, spend a day or two at Universal, a few days at Vero and it's just much more relaxed.

It's not that I hate Disney.....I will always have amazing memories. I'm just not a fan of how the standards have dropped on almost all levels.
 
Wow, I'm sorry if I offended you. Disney was a marketing genius. Everyone with a TV (which wasn't everyone - many people did not have TVs in the 1950s and 60s) could access Disney on TV and everyone with enough money for a picture show (which again, wasn't everyone when Disney was alive - especially in the segregated South) could enjoy his movies. As people of color are more likely to live in poverty, few black families (or Hispanic or American Indian families) got to experience Disney in the 50s and 60s. But they were entry vehicles for stuff animals, watches, lunchboxes - and eventually vacations. Disney was very much a white middle class phenomenon in the 1950s when Disneyland opened - not at all accessible to the masses. I'm sorry if that part of history is something you don't wish to face. That doesn't lessen my own enjoyment of the product and I'm sorry if I lessened yours.

True, but Walt Disney didn’t create poverty. He created jobs. I like the wish upon a Star song.. makes no difference who you are.
You could criticize any product made in the 40s-50s a segment of the population couldn’t afford so the creator is flawed.
What amazes me about Walt Disney is how positive and upbeat he was when he found out his company was no longer his. He then created a new product, Mickey Mouse and learned from his failures. His positive attitude was a key ingredient to his success.
 
I'm probably one :)

I lurk, am kind of fed up with Disney parks, as a whole, but still go.

I love the resorts, love some of the long time cast members, but to us, a WDW vacation just isn't the same.

We purchased DVC when our daughter was about 6. Since then, we've taken many many amazing Disney vacations (well over 50). We've had so much unplanned Magic that really made a WDW trip a cherished experience. But.....we've also watched a dramatic change.

We're now empty-nesters and while we do still love most of the resorts, we have no need to go in to overly crowded parks, where the only Magic that happens is when you pay for it. We have no need to walk around like lemmings, waiting for the next FP or dining time. The lines are too long...The food quality has gone way down hill, the merchandise is dreadful and the Cast Members just don't exemplify Disney that they used to. (The big exception to that are the Vero CM's....they're outstanding.)

We still have DVC points and want to use them, but our vacations are very different than they once were. We sold our BWV points and half of out SSR points and bought Vero, because Vero still feels like the Disney that we once knew. We used to HAVE to stay at BW or BC, be in the parks nearly every day and made ADR's and FP ressies. Now, we're kind of like "Been there...done that" and we stay away from the parks (Usually at SSR). We eat where we feel like it outside of the parks, spend a day or two at Universal, a few days at Vero and it's just much more relaxed.

It's not that I hate Disney.....I will always have amazing memories. I'm just not a fan of how the standards have dropped on almost all levels.

I guess I'm kind of a lurker too but I still love Disney and WDW. We too are empty nesters, we don't really spend that much time in the parks not like we used to, no need to be a lemming. I still enjoy going to MK for a few hours, after we ride the monorail and resort hop maybe getting an adult beverage along the way. We also enjoy riding the boat to Wilderness Lodger area, now we can visit Geyser Point, nice place to spend some time.

We love Epcot, which is probably the park we spend the most time visiting, also it is very conveniently located to the resort where we usually stay. We love riding the boats, resort hopping, spending time at DS and enjoying the pool. There is plenty for us to do aside from going to the parks. We still enjoy dining at many locations on property. Over time we have new favorites as new places are added or changes are made to menus, this is true with anyplace you visit for many years, things change some for the better some not.

This year we will be staying at VB for the first time, I hope we enjoy this resort as much as you seem to. Glad you have found your favorite resort and I hope it continues to hold that special Disney magic for you for many years to come. pixiedust:
 
Being a bit of a history buff, we tend to look at historical figures in the past thru todays eyes. Walt Disney had flaws, but was not an evil or bad guy. Today, there are those who will state he was an anti semite (hi Meryl Streep), but do not try to convince the Sherman Brothers. There are those who paint Abe Lincoln (probably the most liberal president in our history) as a racist- if you look at his views in the 1850's and 60's and compare to today you can make an argument. I prefer to view people in the context of their times. Sorry if I got off topic, but this has always been a hot button with me.
 
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