Proof The Rumors Are True!!! TCD Relocation Plans!

[Tri-circle-D]

I reject your reality and substitute my own. I think that in all my excitement getting this screen cap, my deficiencies as an investigative journalist came to the fore. I thought that the plan shown included the area marked RC.

I don't know if I am in denial or what, but it just doesn't make sense to me that they would squeeze it right up against and into the existing FW footprint. Just sayin'

I'm with you, man.

With all of the space between FW and WL, why cram it in here?

Well, the obvious reason is to take advantage of FW's infrastructure.

No new dock.

No new bus route.

Maybe a new restaurant.

And, Bam!

New DVC units to sell.

It's brilliant.

But, not the best news for FW.

TCD

 

[ynottony99]

I'm with you, man.

With all of the space between FW and WL, why cram it in here?

Well, the obvious reason is to take advantage of FW's infrastructure.

No new dock.

No new bus route.

Maybe a new restaurant.

And, Bam!

New DVC units to sell.

It's brilliant.

But, not the best news for FW.

TCD

What you say makes sense. And I guess if they slam it down with it's big ole backside up against FW, that probably won't affect their DVC sales.

 

[HockeyKat]

It would be good if all of the amenities were open to everyone.

Like at WL.

And AKL.

But, over at the Contemporary, they don't allow guests of the Contemporary to have access to Bay Lake Tower. No access to the roof-top bar. No access to the pool. I would expect a similar situation here. Unless they make the pool really big. But, if this a DVC, and I bought into it, I am not sure I would want to have everyone from FW and WL using the pool at my resort. I understand this, and I don't really have a problem with it. They will need this exclusivity as a marketing tool.

TCD

I agree that they will likely use the exclusivity as a marketing tool unless they use it as mini-gate type attraction.


BW guests can and do use Luna Park even though it is technically in the DVC area.


Do they let AKL resort guests use the Kidani Village pool? I don't believe it is key card accessed, now that I think about it, so I guess there is nothing keeping you from doing so.

I know at BLT and Kidani Village, as a villa guest you are encouraged to use the "main" facility for dining, shopping, etc. We used the main Contemporary pool when at BLT, although it may not be technically allowed though I believe that it is.

VWL, BCV, same deal... almost more so even. Villas are both so close to the main facility and only have the smaller villa pools (although both very nice), that they almost have to use the main buildings. Your BCV room card works for the SAB "guards" as well as a BC or YC card, as well.

 

[Lil' Lisa]

Here is a large JPG composite. I set the original PDF to 200%, pieced together the individual screen snips as well as I could, erased the white background as well as I could and added the google map of the appropriate size in the background. I warn anyone who wants to download this that it is 3.6MB!

Large Composite Image

 

[I'mDownWithDisney]

In regards to the different dock design overlay at the Fort marina, I seem to remember the dock being shorter and having "wings" on each side. I have a vague memory of the little rental boats being on the left side within the "u" shaped portion. Can any of our 30+ yr old members confirm? Of course, I could be out of my mind...it has happened before.

 

[thecplusplusguy]

I was there all through 70's and early 80's, so you'd think I'd remember. But I can't.

Dan

 

[Mickey'sApprentice]

Hi, I'm another lurking DVC member.

I think a Boardwalk area that welcomed everybody would be fantastic. As for pools, it would be according to the size...if they give us a wonderful Storm-Along-Bay pool, then yeah...come on. If they put in a quiet pool...well...I guess the DVCers may go to your cool pool.

Here's my wildest dream...Diamond Horseshoe

 

[UConnJack]

I'm with you, man.

With all of the space between FW and WL, why cram it in here?

Well, the obvious reason is to take advantage of FW's infrastructure.

No new dock.

No new bus route.

Maybe a new restaurant.

And, Bam!

New DVC units to sell.

It's brilliant.

But, not the best news for FW.

TCD

I think you hit the nail on the head with this. Ever since DVC took off (after building OKW), all the DVC properties have been tied to areas with existing infrastructure. The one that was proposed at Eagle Pines did not have that infrastructure in place, and they ended up canning it and building SSR on the old Disney Institute property instead. I don’t think this was a mistake just because it’s close to Pioneer Hall, just the opposite, I think it lends credence. The final plans will likely change a bit, but I bet this is close to what actually happens. All the other DVC plans that have been leaked have ended up similar to the final product. I also bet Disney did not do this by accident. If they really wanted this completely under wraps, they wouldn’t have “accidentally” included this second drawing, they knew someone would find it. They may be secretive, but they also want the buzz. We’re being played.

I also don't see this being anything other than DVC. DVC has been very lucrative over the last 10 years while Disney has had difficultly keeping hotel occupancy high. Not to mention the timing is right for them to be planning the next DVC, as they seem to always want at least 1 or 2 resorts selling at any given time.

Hopefully this will be beneficial for both FW and DVC, I fear FW could get the short end of the stick. Obviously any new restaurants would be open to all WDW guests, but I'd bet any DVC pool would be restricted to DVC guests only. However, if they revamp RC as part of the resort development, which I wouldn't be surprised if they do because I think DVC would need a centerpiece pool/water play area for it to be successful in this area, I suspect it would be open to both DVC and FW guests since that would be a very large pool/water complex to maintain for only a relatively small number of DVC guests. For comparison, SAB services three large resorts in YC, BC, and BCV.

 

[Tri-circle-D]

Also, the dock at FW marina in this drawing is not at all like the existing dock. I'm curious if it is drawn according to how the dock looked in '82?

OK, Shan-man, I went and took a look at this on Google Earth.

And you are right on the money.

The "leaked" drawing uses the outline of how the dock looked prior to 1999.

The question, of course, is why?

My answer, for now, is: I don't know.

So we are all on the same page, here is screen shot of LL's overlay:

And, if the lines are messing you up, here is a screen shot from Google Earth- this image is from May 2, 2010:

The oldest image available on Google Earth of this area is from February 5, 1995:

This configuration of the dock shown on this 1995 photo matches up with the configuration on the "leaked" drawing.

The next available Google Earth image is from January 6, 1999. By that time, the dock was extended and the configuration looks like what it does today:

For good measure, here's an April 30, 2002 image, which is a little clearer than the 1999 image:

So what is up with this?

I am guessing that maybe they used old surveys for the parts of the project that aren't going to be affected by the new buildings.

So, does anyone remember there ever being a canon pointing toward the marina?

Here I am thinking that this was going to be something new, and that the River Country water wagon was coming back, but maybe they are on the drawing from an old survey?

But, I sure don't remember any canon at the Fort.

This is all very, very curious.

Do they let AKL resort guests use the Kidani Village pool? I don't believe it is key card accessed, now that I think about it, so I guess there is nothing keeping you from doing so.

I know at BLT and Kidani Village, as a villa guest you are encouraged to use the "main" facility for dining, shopping, etc. We used the main Contemporary pool when at BLT, although it may not be technically allowed though I believe that it is.

At AKL, guests of Jambo House (the hotel) are free to use the pool at Kidani (the DVC part), and vice versa.

But at the Contemporary, it is different. Bay Lake Tower (the DVC part) are welcome to use all of the Contemporary Resort's amenities, including the pool, but Contemporary Resort guests are not permitted to use any of the BLT amenities. The exclusive amenities were a big selling point for BLT.

Here is a large JPG composite. I set the original PDF to 200%, pieced together the individual screen snips as well as I could, erased the white background as well as I could and added the google map of the appropriate size in the background. I warn anyone who wants to download this that it is 3.6MB!

Large Composite Image

Lisa- Another fantastic job!

Thank you.

I have already spent a lot of time perusing this composite, and plan to spend some more.

It really is useful for understanding things in perspective.

In regards to the different dock design overlay at the Fort marina, I seem to remember the dock being shorter and having "wings" on each side. I have a vague memory of the little rental boats being on the left side within the "u" shaped portion. Can any of our 30+ yr old members confirm? Of course, I could be out of my mind...it has happened before.

Well, if your recollection matches the configuration shown above, and it sounds to me like it does, then I am happy to tell you that you are not out of your mind.

At least not this time.

Congratulations.

Hi, I'm another lurking DVC member.

I think a Boardwalk area that welcomed everybody would be fantastic. As for pools, it would be according to the size...if they give us a wonderful Storm-Along-Bay pool, then yeah...come on. If they put in a quiet pool...well...I guess the DVCers may go to your cool pool.

Here's my wildest dream...Diamond Horseshoe

Welcome DVC lurker!

I would love to hear more about your Diamond Horseshoe comment. Do you mean the show would be brought back here?

Interesting.

It appears that it would definitely fit.

But, what about the Hoop Dee Doo Review being right next door?

I think you hit the nail on the head with this. Ever since DVC took off (after building OKW), all the DVC properties have been tied to areas with existing infrastructure. The one that was proposed at Eagle Pines did not have that infrastructure in place, and they ended up canning it and building SSR on the old Disney Institute property instead. I don’t think this was a mistake just because it’s close to Pioneer Hall, just the opposite, I think it lends credence. The final plans will likely change a bit, but I bet this is close to what actually happens. All the other DVC plans that have been leaked have ended up similar to the final product. I also bet Disney did not do this by accident. If they really wanted this completely under wraps, they wouldn’t have “accidentally” included this second drawing, they knew someone would find it. They may be secretive, but they also want the buzz. We’re being played.

I also don't see this being anything other than DVC. DVC has been very lucrative over the last 10 years while Disney has had difficultly keeping hotel occupancy high. Not to mention the timing is right for them to be planning the next DVC, as they seem to always want at least 1 or 2 resorts selling at any given time.

Hopefully this will be beneficial for both FW and DVC, I fear FW could get the short end of the stick. Obviously any new restaurants would be open to all WDW guests, but I'd bet any DVC pool would be restricted to DVC guests only. However, if they revamp RC as part of the resort development, which I wouldn't be surprised if they do because I think DVC would need a centerpiece pool/water play area for it to be successful in this area, I suspect it would be open to both DVC and FW guests since that would be a very large pool/water complex to maintain for only a relatively small number of DVC guests. For comparison, SAB services three large resorts in YC, BC, and BCV.

I don't have much to say in response to this, other than it is a very good post.

Your point about this maybe being an intentional leak by Disney is intriguing.

I can see them doing that.

If it was intentional, it would be a way for them to get free feedback from folks who obviously are interested.

So, just in case you are right:

Dear Disney Research Team- Please move all of this over to the West a bit. You are crowding in too close to Fort Wilderness, and I don't like it.

Also, if you are going to revive River Country, please make give Fort Wilderness guests the same access as the guests of this new resort.

Also, please give Fort Wilderness a quick serve/food court type restaurant. Maybe something like Roaring Forks at WL. And, please don't take away Trail's End- at least not the take out part.

I said please.

Thank you.

TCD

 

[itch1]

I second tcd sentiments !!!
I have been staying at the Fort all my life and I can safely say there has not been a cannon since 1970's

 

[ftwildernessrick]

I don't think they are going to revive any portion of River Country for any use. Too dilapidated, cost too much to rehab, etc.. I can see them using a few token items in the construction of a new pool for the DVC use.

As far as the close distance to FW, it only makes sense to share the same boat dock. It saves them from having to add another boat dock using still more boats or the FW boat having to make an extra stop mad.

And like I had said before, if this was built, it would only make sense to move the main bus transportation back to the Settlement area, but completely redesign it. They would need to straighten out the road that goes towards Creekside to directly connect with Vista Blvd. (restricted access of course). That way the bus service can 'loop' through WL, FW and then back out again

 

[Shan-man]

Ok, following my last blunder, I have spent considerable time working with the PDF, primarily separating the bits into pertinent layers. Now that this is largely done I thought I would play with what might extend beyond the edges of this sheet. As has been mentioned (sorry, I don't recall by whom) the buildings that are cut off appear to be creating a second arc. I thought, what if you build that arc out, what area would it occupy. Interestingly, it matches up neatly with the existing shoreline! See...

Now, I'm not suggesting that they will build a second arc as drawn, but there seems to be some coordination between the shape of the building arc and the shoreline. The red building over the RC dock doesn't seem to relate well to the arc of buildings, and seems to be another block of rooms, so I don't really know what to make of it.

 

[Shan-man]

Also, I agree with FWR that RC is going to be filled-in. The pool is too close to the proposed buildings, the boardwalk and part of the pond are under one, and the rock slides are right up to another. Not to mention the myriad other problems already discussed. It's toast.

And, if the new development ends up anywhere near as big as the arcs in the previous post suggest, then I think this resort will have it's own dock. The smallest I can imagine this resort being (two arcs of the size already drawn, and two stories) would be 160 suites. What's that, nearly 1,000 additional guests using the Fort dock? What if it's 3 stories, and/or has a larger second arc? I've seen lines of guests at the Fort backed up past the rental window in the off-season with just Fort folk.

 

[thegooftroopfla]

that would explain why the barn is being moved also. in the red buildings none interfere with the barn but the blue buildings go right over it. now we are getting creative

 

[Thumper_ehhhhh]

The cannon must be new and to keep us fort rif raf out of the new dvc lol

 

[UConnJack]

I don't think they are going to revive any portion of River Country for any use. Too dilapidated, cost too much to rehab, etc.. I can see them using a few token items in the construction of a new pool for the DVC use.

I less think they would refurbish what is left of RC, rather I think they will build a new water play park in its place that is similar in theme and activity. I also think it will be an actual pool, and will not be connected to the lake (too many headaches with water quality.) Considering the footprint of RC is similar to that of SAB, I wouldn't be surprise if they put in a comparable sized pool/water play area. BVC is arguably the most popular DVC, and I think that is in no small part due to SAB.

Without a premier pool area, I think they would have a relatively hard time selling this as a DVC. No offense to FW, I love the area, but with the DVCs thus far being marketed as deluxe resorts, they will have a hard time making "The Villas at Fort Wilderness Campground" fit into the system even if it has full resort amenities. It's all perception, and I think they will need something extra to make it stand out and overcome perceptions. I think building RC 2.0 to rival SAB would be the best way, and along with the boat access to MK, I think it would easily stand on it own.

 

[Shan-man]

One more quick image. The partial footprint for the west-most building is a perfect match for another building in the northern arc, so I'd say this is a pretty good hypothetical of that building:

Still doesn't seem to fit with the other arcs, but there it is.

 

[NLPRacing]

I less think they would refurbish what is left of RC, rather I think they will build a new water play park in its place that is similar in theme and activity. I also think it will be an actual pool, and will not be connected to the lake (too many headaches with water quality.) Considering the footprint of RC is similar to that of SAB, I wouldn't be surprise if they put in a comparable sized pool/water play area. BVC is arguably the most popular DVC, and I think that is in no small part due to SAB.

Without a premier pool area, I think they would have a relatively hard time selling this as a DVC. No offense to FW, I love the area, but with the DVCs thus far being marketed as deluxe resorts, they will have a hard time making "The Villas at Fort Wilderness Campground" fit into the system even if it has full resort amenities. It's all perception, and I think they will need something extra to make it stand out and overcome perceptions. I think building RC 2.0 to rival SAB would be the best way, and along with the boat access to MK, I think it would easily stand on it own.

Sorry for asking, but what is SAB and BVC?

 

[burnsoc]

Sorry for asking, but what is SAB and BVC?

BVC should be BCV - Beach Club Villas
SAB - Stormalong Bay the pool at the Beach and Yacht Club resort

 

[UConnJack]

Sorry for asking, but what is SAB and BVC?

No problem. BCV = Beach Club Villas, SAB = Stormalong Bay