Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker discussion thread (*** now contains spoilers ***)

[jade1]

Regardless, from the quotes above, I'm obviously not alone-and that's just on here.

Well, it seems like you are taking issue with a lot of actor's age and the shape they are in. These guys are old - it happens. Lando was delightful in ROS, so what if he's showing his age a bit. The "Worthless old man" bit sounds kinda ageist if you ask me.

I think you missed the point on the age thing. If you don't agree they had ONE OT character in better shape than the rest-that's your opinion.

I'm just saying they never used that ONE physically, which can be tough to find anybody 40 years later-even alive often.

They could have all been in wheels chairs (and Luke may as well been-it would have been better actually), Luke still didn't do anything until the end of TLJ (after what 90% of the resistance crew and fleet were dead)-and it was minimal.

Look, Luke did what he did. I don't think he is responsible for Kylo Ren

Well I doubt it helped when Ben saw him trying to kill him.

It seems like some want Luke to be so perfect and have no flaws and make no mistakes.

He definitely was far from that.

Luke Rey Skywalker has brought peace to the Galaxy and effortlessly defeats every threat of evil that should rear its head. He She always wins and always will. Then end.

Fixed that for ya.

He seemed to care plenty when he heard about Han's death - it's one of the things that spurred him to action

I guess I missed that scene.

 

[BrianL]

I think you missed the point on the age thing. If you don't agree they had ONE OT character in better shape than the rest-that's your opinion.

I'm just saying they never used that ONE physically, which can be tough to find anybody 40 years later-even alive often.

They could have all been in wheels chairs (and Luke may as well been-it would have been better actually), Luke still didn't do anything until the end of TLJ (after what 90% of the resistance crew and fleet were dead)-and it was minimal.

Certianly, I agree that one was in better shape, but the harsh judgement of the others is a bit uncalled for. Decrepit? I mean, people age. Could they have used Luke more physically? Maybe. But they didn't have to - it's not all about the fights.

As far as Luke acting when he did, you may as well say that Yoda or Obi-Wan were responsible for Alderan or all the other stuff the Empire did. It's not really fair to put that on them.

 

[BrianL]

Also, let me just say, I do recognize that TLJ could have done a better job of presenting the history of how/why Luke came to the place he was in. By glossing over it somewhat I think that created a lot of the disconnect between fan expectation and the story they presented. For me, it's not a deal-killer and I gleaned enough to feel comfortable with it, but it's definitely a bit clunky (and not the only thing the ST handled in this manner). As huge of a Star Wars fan that I am I have never read the books or comics and don't really plan to.

 

[jade1]

Also, let me just say, I do recognize that TLJ could have done a better job of presenting the history of how/why Luke came to the place he was in. By glossing over it somewhat I think that created a lot of the disconnect between fan expectation and the story they presented.

Agreed, just spending pretty much an entire movie talking about "the stories of Luke are true?" and "it's true, all of it", and searching for him, finding the missing map piece in R2, to finally finding him at the end...............it just got a lot of hopes up in a direction it never went. But I can see where people like that, twists can be good to.

 

[Mikey15]

Yoda was testing Luke. Luke flat out refused to train her. He didn't teach her, he tried to scare her away from becoming trained. I don't know. I just see it completely different. Rian Johnson's Luke... just really hurt that movie for me. I liked some of the rest of it, though I question much of the story. But the Luke arc... just no. Not for me.

You and others keep referencing it as “RJ’s Luke” as if he wasn’t constrained by the Episode VII setup of “Luke has vanished to far uncharted corners of the galaxy exactly when a new Empire has started to rise.” What would cause him to give up on his nephew and give up on training a new generation of Jedi, precisely when he’s needed most? What RJ wrote is only an extension of the questions given to him to answer.

What was the moment Luke became a Jedi? Yoda told him before dying that his training was complete, but he wasn’t a Jedi yet. He had to confront Vader. When he did, he gained the upper hand by attacking him with anger as the Rebel fleet was cornered and under attack. But at the moment he could have cut Vader down, he threw away his saber. “No, I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed your Highness. I'm a Jedi, like my father before me.” Lucas later drew parallels to this with Dooku’s death in Episode III. When Palpatine told Anakin to kill his captive, Anakin did it; one of his several steps towards the Dark Side.

The Jedi Order has a tradition of choosing when to act and when not to, something that came up often in the prequels. Was inaction always the Good course of action? Probably not. Even Luke sees the error of his decision to cut himself off from the Force. But did it jive with practices from the order that he was the last member of? Absolutely. The religion of the Force is one of balance, not manipulating it to set the galaxy to your liking. Luke’s thought process that trying to train more Jedi ended up bringing more harm than good as some fell to the Dark and destroyed those on the Light was right, with 20:20 hindsight. Ending the Jedi Order was a choice he made in response to that, a legitimate choice of several available; it just so happened that there would eventually be at least one new Jedi both worthy and in need of training.

TLJ explained Luke’s failure, but then brought him back full circle in a brilliantly done fake-out on his nephew that bought the Resistance time to escape, and brought them the Hope they needed. If your complaint is that Luke spent most of the movie as a hermit on an island not willing to do anything, that’s on J.J. If you focus on what he did do once he rethought the lessons of his past failure, RJ brilliantly wrote him back into the fold. I guess I can understand not liking the fact that Luke was not front and centre with Han and Leia to kick off TFA and was “hiding” from his failures (in his mind he was preventing himself from causing more harm, even if that was the wrong lesson to take). I don’t get saying that his full-circle story in TLJ was “poorly written.” Every detail in that script was contemplated. If you don’t believe me, watch Knives Out.

 

[BrianL]

You and others keep referencing it as “RJ’s Luke” as if he wasn’t constrained by the Episode VII setup of “Luke has vanished to far uncharted corners of the galaxy exactly when a new Empire has started to rise.” What would cause him to give up on his nephew and give up on training a new generation of Jedi, precisely when he’s needed most? What RJ wrote is only an extension of the questions given to him to answer.

What was the moment Luke became a Jedi? Yoda told him before dying that his training was complete, but he wasn’t a Jedi yet. He had to confront Vader. When he did, he gained the upper hand by attacking him with anger as the Rebel fleet was cornered and under attack. But at the moment he could have cut Vader down, he threw away his saber. “No, I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed your Highness. I'm a Jedi, like my father before me.” Lucas later drew parallels to this with Dooku’s death in Episode III. When Palpatine told Anakin to kill his captive, Anakin did it; one of his several steps towards the Dark Side.

The Jedi Order has a tradition of choosing when to act and when not to, something that came up often in the prequels. Was inaction always the Good course of action? Probably not. Even Luke sees the error of his decision to cut himself off from the Force. But did it jive with practices from the order that he was the last member of? Absolutely. The religion of the Force is one of balance, not manipulating it to set the galaxy to your liking. Luke’s thought process that trying to train more Jedi ended up bringing more harm than good as some fell to the Dark and destroyed those on the Light was right, with 20:20 hindsight. Ending the Jedi Order was a choice he made in response to that, a legitimate choice of several available; it just so happened that there would eventually be at least one new Jedi both worthy and in need of training.

TLJ explained Luke’s failure, but then brought him back full circle in a brilliantly done fake-out on his nephew that bought the Resistance time to escape, and brought them the Hope they needed. If your complaint is that Luke spent most of the movie as a hermit on an island not willing to do anything, that’s on J.J. If you focus on what he did do once he rethought the lessons of his past failure, RJ brilliantly wrote him back into the fold. I guess I can understand not liking the fact that Luke was not front and centre with Han and Leia to kick off TFA and was “hiding” from his failures (in his mind he was preventing himself from causing more harm, even if that was the wrong lesson to take). I don’t get saying that his full-circle story in TLJ was “poorly written.” Every detail in that script was contemplated. If you don’t believe me, watch Knives Out.

Wow - very nicely articulated! That's how I feel too. Admittedly the movies could have made this all a bit more apparent, but I agree with your take 100%.

 

[jknezek]

You and others keep referencing it as “RJ’s Luke” as if he wasn’t constrained by the Episode VII setup of “Luke has vanished to far uncharted corners of the galaxy exactly when a new Empire has started to rise.” What would cause him to give up on his nephew and give up on training a new generation of Jedi, precisely when he’s needed most? What RJ wrote is only an extension of the questions given to him to answer.

This could have been answered a million different ways without making him a cut off from the Force runaway coward who didn't want to train the galaxy's last hope and guzzled warm blue milk directly from the teats of a sea creature dripping it all over his chin and running in wild eyed terror every time Rey moved. That was RJ's Luke and it was pathetic. It could have just as easily been Luke was looking for those precious first books so that he could become a better teacher when the time arose. Then when Rey arrived he wouldn't make the same mistakes he made with Ben. Gee... that would have made the map make sense to! A way to find him for those who are worthy instead of leaving a map to find him when he didn't want to be found or contribute in any way. Who does that? Don't find me... but here's a map left in my personal droid. Stupid storytelling.

What was the moment Luke became a Jedi? Yoda told him before dying that his training was complete, but he wasn’t a Jedi yet. He had to confront Vader. When he did, he gained the upper hand by attacking him with anger as the Rebel fleet was cornered and under attack. But at the moment he could have cut Vader down, he threw away his saber. “No, I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed your Highness. I'm a Jedi, like my father before me.” Lucas later drew parallels to this with Dooku’s death in Episode III. When Palpatine told Anakin to kill his captive, Anakin did it; one of his several steps towards the Dark Side.

Yes, but mainly because Luke ran off before his training ended to face Vader in Empire. Also because instead of training Jedi taking an entire childhood, the movies necessarily had to speed the process for Luke and Rey. So we have silly shortcuts. I actually don't have a problem with this, it was necessary for both characters to make massive steps on small amounts of training, but the fact remains that Luke at least got some training. Until RoS filled in the holes for Rey with Leia doing the training, RJ just let it all go. No training, no problem. Mary Sue rules.

The Jedi Order has a tradition of choosing when to act and when not to, something that came up often in the prequels. Was inaction always the Good course of action? Probably not. Even Luke sees the error of his decision to cut himself off from the Force. But did it jive with practices from the order that he was the last member of? Absolutely. The religion of the Force is one of balance, not manipulating it to set the galaxy to your liking. Luke’s thought process that trying to train more Jedi ended up bringing more harm than good as some fell to the Dark and destroyed those on the Light was right, with 20:20 hindsight. Ending the Jedi Order was a choice he made in response to that, a legitimate choice of several available; it just so happened that there would eventually be at least one new Jedi both worthy and in need of training.

This is bad logic. If he believed training more Jedi caused an imbalance, then leaving the galaxy in the hands of Kylo Ren, a Force trained wanna-be Sith (regardless of how whiny and incompetent) also leaves a horrendous imbalance. What's worse? Imbalance to the light or imbalance to the dark? One side may make massive mistakes, but they don't tend to blow up planets. I get what RJ was trying to do, it's just absolutely stupid and completely designed to justify making Luke look the way he did. It's bad storytelling for the shock value of flipping an old character.

TLJ explained Luke’s failure, but then brought him back full circle in a brilliantly done fake-out on his nephew that bought the Resistance time to escape, and brought them the Hope they needed. If your complaint is that Luke spent most of the movie as a hermit on an island not willing to do anything, that’s on J.J. If you focus on what he did do once he rethought the lessons of his past failure, RJ brilliantly wrote him back into the fold. I guess I can understand not liking the fact that Luke was not front and centre with Han and Leia to kick off TFA and was “hiding” from his failures (in his mind he was preventing himself from causing more harm, even if that was the wrong lesson to take). I don’t get saying that his full-circle story in TLJ was “poorly written.” Every detail in that script was contemplated. If you don’t believe me, watch Knives Out.

It's really not. Luke could have been off doing anything to help. RJ made him a hermit unwilling to help. JJ just made it a quest to find him. RJ made the quest pointless and blew the continuity from one movie to another. RJ didn't brilliantly bring him back into the fold. He tried to copy Obi-wan's sacrifice to buy time. Except instead of Obi-wan facing his mentor like a man and helping Luke, RJ played a cheap trick on Rey's whiny sub-par villain who didn't have two brain cells to rub together. Then killed off Luke when he didn't need to. Why did astral projection require a sacrifice? Because RJ wanted it to. Not because canon or anything else says it had to. That sacrifice only occurred because that's how RJ wrote it, creating a giant dead end for the character. Obi-wan got cut in half by a lightsaber. Granted that's not necessarily fatal in Star Wars either (Cough Darth Maul Cough), but medically we can at least say it was most likely a physical sacrifice.

Knives Out may be a good movie. I don't think Episode VIII is. But I can appreciate that our opinions vary and, at this stage, people are very unlikely to change anyone else's mind.

 

[Mome Rath]

I totally agree with the "wild-eyed" Luke issues. They could have handled his character with the weight of the world and decisions on his shoulders, instead of odd clownish reactions. And, it wasn't Mark's doing, as he didn't do that in RoS. Even Yoda's antics were a bit OTT. I compare it to when we were first introduced to "Old Ben." He came across a bit tired, but wise. Luke came off as scared of everything one minute and grumpy the next. He didn't show onscreen compassion for Ben to his face, which I found really strange (I can't help but compare that to Obi-Wan's heart wrenching talks with Anakin). To be fair, it wasn't just Rian's movie that I had issue with as far as character development (Han and Leia not being together was crap, IMO... just sayin'), but it was more "in your face" with a bigger impact on the movie(s) as a whole.

 

[Craig Larson]

This could have been answered a million different ways without making him a cut off from the Force runaway coward

No, it couldnt. This was set up by JJ. Here is a pretty good video explaining my thoughts better than I could (if jump to time isn't working, skip to 8:20):

 

[Skywise]

No, it couldnt. This was set up by JJ.

Yes - it could.
JJ just setup that Luke went off on an adventure - as revealed in RoS Luke was searching for the return of the Emperor whom he could tell was influencing Ben. RJ completely tossed aside that story and decide Luke was a disgruntled hermit who hated the Jedi and the Force and was sorry he ever tried to save the galaxy. If you like that story, that's fine - but it spat in the face of decades of lore, stories and fans.

 

[jknezek]

Yes - it could.
JJ just setup that Luke went off on an adventure - as revealed in RoS Luke was searching for the return of the Emperor whom he could tell was influencing Ben. RJ completely tossed aside that story and decide Luke was a disgruntled hermit who hated the Jedi and the Force and was sorry he ever tried to save the galaxy. If you like that story, that's fine - but it spat in the face of decades of lore, stories and fans.

This exactly. Go watch TFA again. Luke is off somewhere. It's never said why. The only flashback to the missing 30 years is to Luke and R2 watching his academy burn. There is little speculation otherwise, just people searching. There could have been any number of reasons for Luke to have gone off while leaving a way to find him when necessary. RJ did what he did. It sucked in my opinion. Others can have their opinions but it won't change mine. The Luke thread and the Finn thread of Episode VIII were not to my liking and not necessary. But RJ made them that way and we are stuck with it. But you can't convince me that it was part of JJ's arc or that it flows with the other 2 movies. It doesn't. VIII is poor outlier in the trilogy and that's a shame.

 

[BrianL]

One important note - Rian Johnson didn't write ANYTHING that wasn't approved by Lucasfilm, the Story Group, and likely J.J. Abrahms as executive producer. If they took issue with any of it, they could have pulled the reigns. The story certainly built off of Episode VII. Jsut because it didn't go in the way you thought it should doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

 

[jknezek]

One important note - Rian Johnson didn't write ANYTHING that wasn't approved by Lucasfilm, the Story Group, and likely J.J. Abrahms as executive producer. If they took issue with any of it, they could have pulled the reigns. The story certainly built off of Episode VII. Jsut because it didn't go in the way you thought it should doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

We can agree to disagree on that. And I agree that Kennedy had visual and I blame her for the mess of VIII quite a bit. It was literally her job to make them cohesive. Now I don't think it is, lots of people do. And, as I've said before, of the Star Wars movies under Kennedy's watch, I like 4 out of 5. So I don't think she's doing a bad job overall. But I do think VIII dropped the ball and that just isn't going to change. You can literally watch 7 and 9 and skip 8 and have missed just about nothing important. That's not good to have an almost irrelevant movie in the middle.

 

[Craig Larson]

Yes - it could.
JJ just setup that Luke went off on an adventure - as revealed in RoS Luke was searching for the return of the Emperor whom he could tell was influencing Ben. RJ completely tossed aside that story and decide Luke was a disgruntled hermit who hated the Jedi and the Force and was sorry he ever tried to save the galaxy. If you like that story, that's fine - but it spat in the face of decades of lore, stories and fans.

This exactly. Go watch TFA again. Luke is off somewhere. It's never said why. The only flashback to the missing 30 years is to Luke and R2 watching his academy burn. There is little speculation otherwise, just people searching. There could have been any number of reasons for Luke to have gone off while leaving a way to find him when necessary. RJ did what he did. It sucked in my opinion. Others can have their opinions but it won't change mine. The Luke thread and the Finn thread of Episode VIII were not to my liking and not necessary. But RJ made them that way and we are stuck with it. But you can't convince me that it was part of JJ's arc or that it flows with the other 2 movies. It doesn't. VIII is poor outlier in the trilogy and that's a shame.

Did either of you watch the video? Luke had to have cut off his force, or else he would have sensed the rise of the first order. He would have sensed the new republic get wiped out in one fell swoop (just as Obi-Wan did in ANH), he would have sensed Han dying and reaching out to Leia. He would have been a coward if he did sense those things and did not come back.

He was not on an adventure to find the Emperor at that point. In ROS, when he was searching for the Sith clues with Lando was before he cut himself off from the force. Here, is exactly what Han said about Luke in TFA:

Han Solo : [BB-8 shows Han, Finn, and Rey the map to Luke Skywalker] This map's not complete. It's just a piece. Ever since Luke disappeared, people have been looking for him.

Rey : Why did he leave?

Han Solo : He was training a new generation of Jedi. There was nobody else left to do it, so he took the burden on himself. Everything was going great, until... one boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything.

Finn : Do you know what happened to him?

Han Solo : There were a lot of rumors. Stories. People who knew him best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple.

Rey : [in awe] The Jedi were real?

Han Solo : I used to wonder about that myself. Thought it was a bunch of mumbo jumbo. A magical power holding together good and evil, the dark side and the light. Crazy thing is... it's true. The Force, the Jedi. All of it. It's all true.

Bolded parts for emphasis. The only thing we knew was he walked away from everything. The part of him looking for the first Jedi Temple were rumors/stories.

 

[jknezek]

Did either of you watch the video? Luke had to have cut off his force, or else he would have sensed the rise of the first order. He would have sensed the new republic get wiped out in one fell swoop (just as Obi-Wan did in ANH), he would have sensed Han dying and reaching out to Leia. He would have been a coward if he did sense those things and did not come back.

He was not on an adventure to find the Emperor at that point. In ROS, when he was searching for the Sith clues with Lando was before he cut himself off from the force. Here, is exactly what Han said about Luke in TFA:



Bolded parts for emphasis. The only thing we knew was he walked away from everything. The part of him looking for the first Jedi Temple were rumors/stories.

Yes. And the bolded points prove that RJ could have gone any direction. He walked away from his school and was off. Looking for the first temple. That could have gone a million ways. As for the video, that's speculation and has no basis in anything. It's a nice fan piece that makes a point you agree with, that doesn't mean it is correct or the direction the series could have gone.

As for cutting himself off so that he didn't feel and come back to help, that's a deus ex machima. If he hadn't cut himself off he could have been off doing something he considered more important for the long term. What is the point of rushing back to save Han once he is already dead if you are closing in the Emperor or the materials you need to refound the Jedi Order? He could have just as easily had another vision of rushing back is death, while staying his course leads to the heroine who will eventually solve the problem. Or because he was close to a well of darkness, he might not have felt it. Being masked works both ways as Yoda proved.

Honestly, these are silly points to argue over. They don't REQUIRE anything. Since you agree with them, you believe they prove something. But they do nothing for making an argument this is the way the plot NEEDED or SHOULD have gone. They just support, in retrospect, some aspect of how RJ made it go., I don't see how any of this forced RJ's hand.

Such is how art works. It's open to many interpretations but that doesn't make them right.

 

[BrianL]

Did either of you watch the video? Luke had to have cut off his force, or else he would have sensed the rise of the first order. He would have sensed the new republic get wiped out in one fell swoop (just as Obi-Wan did in ANH), he would have sensed Han dying and reaching out to Leia. He would have been a coward if he did sense those things and did not come back.

He was not on an adventure to find the Emperor at that point. In ROS, when he was searching for the Sith clues with Lando was before he cut himself off from the force. Here, is exactly what Han said about Luke in TFA:



Bolded parts for emphasis. The only thing we knew was he walked away from everything. The part of him looking for the first Jedi Temple were rumors/stories.

Right. I don't see it as Luke ran away from everything, he went seeking the Jedi Temple - once there he determined that his best course of action was to stay away. That may not have been the correct interpretation, but it doesn't make him a coward or anything else.

 

[LizzyS]

Worthless old man, yea pretty much the feeling I got.

And that esp ruins the fact that Mark was the only "OLD" OT hero in decent enough shape to capitalize on physically.

His "Projected" fight with Kylo was Mark, not animated or CGI-he still looked great IMO.

Compare him to Ford who actually had "human" fights in TFA, Leia barley able to move, now we get a decrepit Lando just so we have an OT for RoS?

Mostly summarized below.









It wasn't crazy far off that he did come around somewhat the last 5 minutes of TLJ-but a 5 minute "hey look over here" while the brainiacs escape out the back-that's his entire postive contribution?

Per Rian Johnson:

1) Luke was the cause of Kylo Ren.

2) Kylo killed his own father Han, Luke didn't even care.

3) Luke sat in his protected cave while ship after ship ran out of gas in slow motion (like a dog chasing a cat on a day so hot they were both walking) and were blown to bits- resistance crew and all, until luckily somehow one last ship with minimal crew remaining, managed to land.

4) AND ONLY THEN he decides to help, by buying a measly 5 minutes of time while that group escaped-ONLY because Rey arrived with the Falcon?

5) AND DIED doing that? Wow big contribution.





Safely tucked away while everybody died from what he caused?





Yes that would have helped a lot IMO as well.

I'm not even going to pretend I read all this, but taking issue with actors getting old is genuinely hilarious.

Are you serious?

 

[LizzyS]

You and others keep referencing it as “RJ’s Luke” as if he wasn’t constrained by the Episode VII setup of “Luke has vanished to far uncharted corners of the galaxy exactly when a new Empire has started to rise.” What would cause him to give up on his nephew and give up on training a new generation of Jedi, precisely when he’s needed most? What RJ wrote is only an extension of the questions given to him to answer.

*Standing ovation*

RJ didn't create the situation that he had no choice but to explain somehow.

 

[Skywise]

One important note - Rian Johnson didn't write ANYTHING that wasn't approved by Lucasfilm, the Story Group, and likely J.J. Abrahms as executive producer. If they took issue with any of it, they could have pulled the reigns. The story certainly built off of Episode VII. Jsut because it didn't go in the way you thought it should doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

naah - JJ has said that RJ ignored the outline that JJ Abrahms provided about where he thought the story would go. AFAIK there's NO story "group" (like Marvel). But yeah Kathleen Kennedy enthusiastically approved and supported the story - so much so that RJ was originally given 3 more movies to do after Episode IX. But not anymore.

 

[BrianL]

naah - JJ has said that RJ ignored the outline that JJ Abrahms provided about where he thought the story would go. AFAIK there's NO story "group" (like Marvel). But yeah Kathleen Kennedy enthusiastically approved and supported the story - so much so that RJ was originally given 3 more movies to do after Episode IX. But not anymore.

Well, there is a Story Group (that's what it's called):
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lucasfilm_Story_Group
"The Lucasfilm Story Group is a division of Lucasfilm Ltd. founded in 2013 that is responsible for keeping track of Star Wars canon in order to assist writers and directors in the development of new stories. As of May 2017, the group comprises eleven individuals."

As for J.J, I haven't seen any sources that state that Rian ignored him, but I do have one that says quite the opposite:
https://www.indiewire.com/2019/08/jj-abrams-rian-johnson-derail-star-wars-story-1202169944/
It seems like so many people want to see the strife and are so sure that the story is disjointed that that is proof of that. But some people don't find the story disjointed at all, so what does that prove? Liking it or not is of course a matter of opinion, but to assume that there must be behind the scenes strife because one didn't isn't rational.