Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker discussion thread (*** now contains spoilers ***)

[jknezek]

Well, there is a Story Group (that's what it's called):
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lucasfilm_Story_Group
"The Lucasfilm Story Group is a division of Lucasfilm Ltd. founded in 2013] that is responsible for keeping track of Star Wars canon in order to assist writers and directors in the development of new stories. As of May 2017, the group comprises eleven individuals."

As for J.J, I haven't seen any sources that state that Rian ignored him, but I do have one that says quite the opposite:
https://www.indiewire.com/2019/08/jj-abrams-rian-johnson-derail-star-wars-story-1202169944/
It seems like so many people want to see the strife and are so sure that the story is disjointed that that is proof of that. But some people don't find the story disjointed at all, so what does that prove? Liking it or not is of course a matter of opinion, but to assume that there must be behind the scenes strife because one didn't isn't rational.

It comes directly from Daisy Ridley. It's been well quoted.

https://www.express.co.uk/entertain...ms-Last-Jedi-outline-plot-script-Daisy-Ridley

 

[YesterDark]

JJ is a terrible writer so I don't blame him.

Good director, terrible writer. Not to mention he picked the dude who wrote Superman v Batman.

 

[BrianL]

It comes directly from Daisy Ridley. It's been well quoted.

https://www.express.co.uk/entertain...ms-Last-Jedi-outline-plot-script-Daisy-Ridley

Yeah, but read what she actually said:

"Here’s what I think I know. JJ (Abrams) wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII and IX."

"Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote The Last Jedi entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realises his film in his own way."

"Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didn’t keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII."

Yes, Rian rewrote the script, but that doesn't mean the story beats weren't already in the works or that some things were discussed and reworked. Of course the director has that right to put his stamp on it. When she says he didn't "keep anything" she doesn't necessarily mean the overarching plot, but more likely the actual script. Beyond that, she isn't even 100% sure of all of the dealings.

My point is that we don't actually know what was what and who is responsible for this or that, etc. - it's all speculation. J.J. and Rian do not seem to be at each others' throats nor does J.J. repudiate what Rian did. They likely talked it over and agreed on what would be best.

 

[jknezek]

Yeah, but read what she actually said:

"Here’s what I think I know. JJ (Abrams) wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII and IX."

"Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote The Last Jedi entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realises his film in his own way."

"Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didn’t keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII."

Yes, Rian rewrote the script, but that doesn't mean the story beats weren't already in the works or that some things were discussed and reworked. Of course the director has that right to put his stamp on it. When she says he didn't "keep anything" she doesn't necessarily mean the overarching plot, but more likely the actual script. Beyond that, she isn't even 100% sure of all of the dealings.

My point is that we don't actually know what was what and who is responsible for this or that, etc. - it's all speculation. J.J. and Rian do not seem to be at each others' throats nor does J.J. repudiate what Rian did. They likely talked it over and agreed on what would be best.

All of this is speculation. And they have politely taken shots at each other and also played nicely when needed.

"I believe Rian didn’t keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII."

Didn't keep anything is pretty clear. When I say I didn't keep anything I mean it all went. You can interpret that as "didn't keep anything but the important plot they agreed on" but I don't.

Personally I I interpret the previous comment as they met, they talked, and RJ did whatever he wanted. That certainly fits better with the comment that immediately followed than any other interpretation in my mind.

 

[TomServo27]

I can’t wait for the new direction they are going with Star Wars. I’m so tired of the endless debates over the sequel trilogy.

 

[Skywise]

Well, there is a Story Group (that's what it's called):
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lucasfilm_Story_Group
"The Lucasfilm Story Group is a division of Lucasfilm Ltd. founded in 2013 that is responsible for keeping track of Star Wars canon in order to assist writers and directors in the development of new stories. As of May 2017, the group comprises eleven individuals."

As for J.J, I haven't seen any sources that state that Rian ignored him, but I do have one that says quite the opposite:
https://www.indiewire.com/2019/08/jj-abrams-rian-johnson-derail-star-wars-story-1202169944/
It seems like so many people want to see the strife and are so sure that the story is disjointed that that is proof of that. But some people don't find the story disjointed at all, so what does that prove? Liking it or not is of course a matter of opinion, but to assume that there must be behind the scenes strife because one didn't isn't rational.

There's no "story" group as it applied to the episode 7, 8 and 9 because they've already claimed time and time again that the story wasn't planned out - nowhere insofar as the continuity of the Marvel Universe is setup and kept watch over.

https://cosmicbook.news/rian-johnson-ignored-jj-abrams-star-wars-episode-viii-script<quote> I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main storylines that would happen in the trilogy, but apart from that, we agreed that every director should probably make his movie his own wa </quote>

There was no "strife" prior to the TLJ, Solo DISASTERS (and that's what they were) because that's exactly where Kathleen Kennedy et al wanted the story to go. When the movies lost money and severely damaged the multi BILLION dollar franchise (which they did) THEN the strife and finger pointing began and why Disney is running this inspid "end of the skywalker saga" so they can dispense with the main storyline once and for all.

 

[BrianL]

All of this is speculation. And they have politely taken shots at each other and also played nicely when needed.

"I believe Rian didn’t keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII."

Didn't keep anything is pretty clear. When I say I didn't keep anything I mean it all went. You can interpret that as "didn't keep anything but the important plot they agreed on" but I don't.

Personally I I interpret the previous comment as they met, they talked, and RJ did whatever he wanted. That certainly fits better with the comment that immediately followed than any other interpretation in my mind.

Well, good that you admit it is all speculation. Sometimes you are saying it like you know - my point is none of us really do.

There's no "story" group as it applied to the episode 7, 8 and 9 because they've already claimed time and time again that the story wasn't planned out - nowhere insofar as the continuity of the Marvel Universe is setup and kept watch over.

I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main storylines that would happen in the trilogy, but apart from that, we agreed that every director should probably make his movie his own wa

But, that leads me to believe there was at least some of the general plot preserved.

Also, TLJ did not lose money. It made $1.3 Billion. Yes, Solo did lose money, but ROS is already well in the black, showing Solo to be an abberation.

 

[Mikey15]

This could have been answered a million different ways without making him a cut off from the Force runaway coward who didn't want to train the galaxy's last hope and guzzled warm blue milk directly from the teats of a sea creature dripping it all over his chin and running in wild eyed terror every time Rey moved. That was RJ's Luke and it was pathetic. It could have just as easily been Luke was looking for those precious first books so that he could become a better teacher when the time arose. Then when Rey arrived he wouldn't make the same mistakes he made with Ben. Gee... that would have made the map make sense to! A way to find him for those who are worthy instead of leaving a map to find him when he didn't want to be found or contribute in any way. Who does that? Don't find me... but here's a map left in my personal droid. Stupid storytelling.


Yes, but mainly because Luke ran off before his training ended to face Vader in Empire. Also because instead of training Jedi taking an entire childhood, the movies necessarily had to speed the process for Luke and Rey. So we have silly shortcuts. I actually don't have a problem with this, it was necessary for both characters to make massive steps on small amounts of training, but the fact remains that Luke at least got some training. Until RoS filled in the holes for Rey with Leia doing the training, RJ just let it all go. No training, no problem. Mary Sue rules.


This is bad logic. If he believed training more Jedi caused an imbalance, then leaving the galaxy in the hands of Kylo Ren, a Force trained wanna-be Sith (regardless of how whiny and incompetent) also leaves a horrendous imbalance. What's worse? Imbalance to the light or imbalance to the dark? One side may make massive mistakes, but they don't tend to blow up planets. I get what RJ was trying to do, it's just absolutely stupid and completely designed to justify making Luke look the way he did. It's bad storytelling for the shock value of flipping an old character.


It's really not. Luke could have been off doing anything to help. RJ made him a hermit unwilling to help. JJ just made it a quest to find him. RJ made the quest pointless and blew the continuity from one movie to another. RJ didn't brilliantly bring him back into the fold. He tried to copy Obi-wan's sacrifice to buy time. Except instead of Obi-wan facing his mentor like a man and helping Luke, RJ played a cheap trick on Rey's whiny sub-par villain who didn't have two brain cells to rub together. Then killed off Luke when he didn't need to. Why did astral projection require a sacrifice? Because RJ wanted it to. Not because canon or anything else says it had to. That sacrifice only occurred because that's how RJ wrote it, creating a giant dead end for the character. Obi-wan got cut in half by a lightsaber. Granted that's not necessarily fatal in Star Wars either (Cough Darth Maul Cough), but medically we can at least say it was most likely a physical sacrifice.

Knives Out may be a good movie. I don't think Episode VIII is. But I can appreciate that our opinions vary and, at this stage, people are very unlikely to change anyone else's mind.

Without getting into a line by line debate, I really don’t think you “get what RJ was trying to do” if you insist in the next breath that it’s “stupid.” It’s not how you wanted the story to go, and that’s fine, but those emotions are clouding your judgment if you think it’s “stupid” or “bad storytelling.” The writing was all there even if it wasn’t the story you wanted to see told.

Right. I don't see it as Luke ran away from everything, he went seeking the Jedi Temple - once there he determined that his best course of action was to stay away. That may not have been the correct interpretation, but it doesn't make him a coward or anything else.

This. Luke went on a quest to find the first Jedi temple. He left R2 a map to where he was going and found it. Something after getting there, reading whatever sacred texts he found, meditating and ruminating on his failure, led him to stay. He didn’t set out to hide, but rightly or wrongly, from his point of view he saw that (to paraphrase what someone else said) training new Force users on the light side always had the potential to end up with them on the dark. This, as you’ll recall is the reasoning behind Yoda not wanting Anakin trained to begin with. Luke took it a step further and reasoned against clinging to the belief that only a renewed Jedi Order could preserve the light:
“And this is the lesson. That Force does not belong to the Jedi. To say that if the Jedi die, the light dies, is vanity. Can you feel that?”

I also think it’s getting overlooked that Luke did train Rey. Reluctantly at first, after sussing her out, but it didn’t take until Yoda and the last act of TLJ for him to come around. He was hesitant for good reason; if you think about how she was drawn to the dark, and how her innate power (spare me all that “Mary Sue” BS) on the level of Kylo Ren scared Luke of her going dark in a way he wish he had been scared of for Ben before the fall of the temple. Taken as a whole with TRoS, can you still blame him?

What kept him from coming with Rey on the Falcon included the correct notion that him going out there with a lightsaber to take on the whole First Order wasn’t going to accomplish anything. Maybe if he hadn’t cut himself off from the Force; if he had straightened what had really happened at the Temple out with Ben, things could have been different, but that ship had sailed before Rey came to the island holding a lightsaber in TFA. The “legend” could have come back, but not in enough time to save the day, and he recognized that. What he ended up doing by Force projection accomplished more for the cause than he could have by getting on the Falcon.

Remember the themes of the movie, “the greatest teacher, failure is” and how they’ll win by “not fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.” Individual character arcs in TLJ didn’t occur in isolation. It was one thematic story that resonated as a whole. What Yoda said applied to Finn, Rose, and Poe too, and what Rose said applied to Rey, Luke, and Leia. And, especially with regards to ReyLo (my wife prefers “Bey”), they carried into TRoS too.

 

[disneygirlsng]

Without getting into a line by line debate, I really don’t think you “get what RJ was trying to do” if you insist in the next breath that it’s “stupid.” It’s not how you wanted the story to go, and that’s fine, but those emotions are clouding your judgment if you think it’s “stupid” or “bad storytelling.” The writing was all there even if it wasn’t the story you wanted to see told.



This. Luke went on a quest to find the first Jedi temple. He left R2 a map to where he was going and found it. Something after getting there, reading whatever sacred texts he found, meditating and ruminating on his failure, led him to stay. He didn’t set out to hide, but rightly or wrongly, from his point of view he saw that (to paraphrase what someone else said) training new Force users on the light side always had the potential to end up with them on the dark. This, as you’ll recall is the reasoning behind Yoda not wanting Anakin trained to begin with. Luke took it a step further and reasoned against clinging to the belief that only a renewed Jedi Order could preserve the light:
“And this is the lesson. That Force does not belong to the Jedi. To say that if the Jedi die, the light dies, is vanity. Can you feel that?”

I also think it’s getting overlooked that Luke did train Rey. Reluctantly at first, after sussing her out, but it didn’t take until Yoda and the last act of TLJ for him to come around. He was hesitant for good reason; if you think about how she was drawn to the dark, and how her innate power (spare me all that “Mary Sue” BS) on the level of Kylo Ren scared Luke of her going dark in a way he wish he had been scared of for Ben before the fall of the temple. Taken as a whole with TRoS, can you still blame him?

What kept him from coming with Rey on the Falcon included the correct notion that him going out there with a lightsaber to take on the whole First Order wasn’t going to accomplish anything. Maybe if he hadn’t cut himself off from the Force; if he had straightened what had really happened at the Temple out with Ben, things could have been different, but that ship had sailed before Rey came to the island holding a lightsaber in TFA. The “legend” could have come back, but not in enough time to save the day, and he recognized that. What he ended up doing by Force projection accomplished more for the cause than he could have by getting on the Falcon.

Remember the themes of the movie, “the greatest teacher, failure is” and how they’ll win by “not fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.” Individual character arcs in TLJ didn’t occur in isolation. It was one thematic story that resonated as a whole. What Yoda said applied to Finn, Rose, and Poe too, and what Rose said applied to Rey, Luke, and Leia. And, especially with regards to ReyLo (my wife prefers “Bey”), they carried into TRoS too.

This and all of this. It's like some people are equating the story not going the way they wanted it to go with "bad storytelling". Which is absurd to me. Just because the sequel trilogy didn't go the way you wanted it to, doesn't mean it's a bad story. And it's like that thought is completely clouding the judgement and everything is automatically negative because it didn't go the way they wanted it to.

 

[YesterDark]

How any one can claim that all three movies were made from a single planned story line is burying their head in the sand. Who cares about all these quotes, just watch the three movies. They're a mess.

 

[Brianstl]

How any one can claim that all three movies were made from a single planned story line is burying their head in the sand. Who cares about all these quotes, just watch the three movies. They're a mess.

Disney’s PR department is pretty big

 

[jkh36619]

It was indeed a bad story if you look at it from the start of TFA to the end of ROS. Until Dis can get it together, just do stand alones. They're pretty good.

 

[jade1]

I'm not even going to pretend I read all this, but taking issue with actors getting old is genuinely hilarious.

Are you serious?

I think you missed the point on the age thing. If you don't agree they had ONE OT character in better shape than the rest-that's your opinion.

I'm just saying they never used that ONE physically, which can be tough to find anybody 40 years later-even alive often.

They could have all been in wheels chairs (and Luke may as well been-it would have been better actually), Luke still didn't do anything until the end of TLJ (after what 90% of the resistance crew and fleet were dead)-and it was minimal.

 

[jade1]

TLJ explained Luke’s failure, but then brought him back full circle in a brilliantly done fake-out on his nephew that bought the Resistance time to escape, and brought them the Hope they need

I liked that fake out at first actually, and as for an arc it's not terrible-its still pretty cool.

Just that when he actually died from the 5 minute fake out- kinda seemed a bit wasted. May as well raised the x-wing and died in person-would have bought 5 minutes as well. He couldn't hurt anybody in that form, and he couldn't be hurt from the safety of his island. So I guess buying 5 minutes of time is the highlight full circle redemption of his arc.

Only thing is, even that was pointless if not for there actually being a back exit (which they could have done long before Luke appeared anyway) and the real hero at that point was Rey picking them up in the Falcon, and most of all moving all the boulders out of the way.

Heck if he was now using the force, why not just tell Leia there's a back exit to escape.

 

[YesterDark]

It was indeed a bad story if you look at it from the start of TFA to the end of ROS. Until Dis can get it together, just do stand alones. They're pretty good.

No it was bad all around from minute by minute.

 

[YesterDark]

I liked that fake out at first actually, and as for an arc it's not terrible-its still pretty cool.

Just that when he actually died from the 5 minute fake out- kinda seemed a bit wasted. May as well raised the x-wing and died in person-would have bought 5 minutes as well. He couldn't hurt anybody in that form, and he couldn't be hurt from the safety of his island. So I guess buying 5 minutes of time is the highlight full circle redemption of his arc.

Only thing is, even that was pointless if not for there actually being a back exit (which they could have done long before Luke appeared anyway) and the real hero at that point was Rey picking them up in the Falcon, and most of all moving all the boulders out of the way.

Heck if he was now using the force, why not just tell Leia there's a back exit to escape.

The idea of Luke being a fallen character is great. If it's done competently. But that idea needs to happen over the course of the whole trilogy. Not a few flash backs and a training sequence. We need to WATCH him fall. Not be told it happened already.

The way it was done in the movies was awful and bad writing/story telling.

 

[disneygirlsng]

I need to stop trying to understand how people can possibly think these movies were bad, because I don't think I will ever understand.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I need to stop trying to understand how people can possibly think these movies were bad, because I don't think I will ever understand.

I've come to that point as well - I mean I get some of the points and enjoy discussing different takes/nuances - but some people enjoyed them and some people just didn't and many at the point they don't want to

And that is fine - if everyone liked the same thing the world would be boring - but gotten to the point not worth engaging any more

 

[PrincessWithABlaster]

I need to stop trying to understand how people can possibly think these movies were bad, because I don't think I will ever understand.

I liked all of them except for TLJ. And I feel the same way but opposite of you. I can’t understand how people liked it. But as many have said, to each their own. Here’s to more good SW movies going forward.

 

[TomServo27]

Should pass $1 billion in box office over the next few days. Don’t think it’s a disappointment necessarily financially speaking but it has underperformed.