Back to School during the pandemic ...a discussion thread

[Boopuff]

The school I work in is filthy. I'm sure there are some good "custodians" out there, but I think ours excel at nothing but "Candy Crush". I did the "cheerio test". Placed one cheerio on the edge of the sink right by the faucet. It sat, and sat, and sat. You guessed it, the sink was NEVER cleaned. We wipe down around the sink with "approved bleach solution" - Clorox wipes are not allowed...such a pain. Well we don't have to be concerned, just got the missive today: On line learning until Oct.

 

[bababear_50]

Just a few snippets from an article I have been reading,,,
16.3 billion in disrepair!!!!
http://fixourschools.ca/
Please mark July 29th on your calendar to visit your local MPP’s office at noon and demand a safe and fully funded return to school for Ontario’s students. Ontario Families for Public Education and the Ontario Parents Action Network are organizing this event and ask that you please register here.

When you connect with your local MPP, be sure to remind them that even prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, provincial funding for schools was grossly inadequate, allowing $16.3-billion of disrepair to accumulate in Ontario’s school buildings. Below, we’ve listed school disrepair details for PC ridings where local MPPs signed the Fix Our Schools Pledge during the last provincial election, committing personally to ensuring all Ontario schools are provided adequate funding to ensure they are safe, healthy, well-maintained and provide environments conducive to learning.

Now would be the perfect time to remind these MPPs of their commitment and to hold them to their election promise! And please be sure to point out that for a safe return to school amidst a global pandemic, school boards will need additional funding to ensure PPE availability, good ventilation in classrooms, reasonable classroom temperatures, proper hand hygiene and cleanliness, and sufficient caretaking staff, to name but a few details.

And the Ontario Gov came to realize that Nursing Homes and Long Term care were in bad (horrific) shape,,,,take a look at our schools where our children are everyday!.

P>S> I am NOT advocating anyone go out and risk exposure to this nasty virus,,an email or call to your MP is a much safer idea!

 

[pigletto]

My son in law is the head of all skilled trades in a school board district. For the last three months they have been putting hand washing and hand sanitizing stations in the classroom along with partitions. Nothing is perfect but I find it ironic that a certain teachers union is fighting for online teaching which is exactly why they were striking last year. If every essential worker used this rational, the economy would have collapsed along with health care disappearing. I did my health care duties without getting sick. We were careful and pro active. To say that it’s on safe and refuse to work without even trying is unreasonable. I am not blaming teachers as they are the pawns in the game of chess between the teachers union and the provincial government. Very sad.

So I‘ve been giving your post some thought and feel the need to respectfully disagree with a few key points here . When the teachers unions were fighting against online learning as an acceptable delivery model it was because it is not a substitute for in class learning and not the best delivery method for our kids in all circumstances. They didn’t want to see a disproportionate amount of class learning to be shunted to online for a cost saving measure. Especially if it wasn’t the best delivery model for our kids. I don’t think there was anywhere this was made more evident than the mess it was when all kids had to transition to online learning environment in the Spring. However .. a global pandemic is an entirely different animal . They are fighting for safe working conditions. Maybe a better way to look at it is that it’s ironic the Ontario government was so keen to push to online learning but won’t consider it now that we need it for health and safety.

My second problem with your post is the assertion that as a health care worker you did your job so everyone else should have to as well. Nobody is saying they don’t want to do their job .. they just want to be safe doing it. My entire family are doctors and nurses.. you all had PPE and strict protocols for disease mitigation. When you didn’t , your unions went to bat for you or there was public outcry. You were lauded as heroes and honoured by the public. It’s a pretty far cry from what teachers are facing. Educators want a safe working environment , and money for the changes that need to be made to the school and classrooms. They can’t even get a mandate that people need to wear masks in their buildings . Everyone is so focused on what is best for their child’s mental health and learning that I feel some of us are forgetting there is a significant risk to educators and that hurts our kids too .

We should all be demanding truly safe working conditions for teachers . It benefits us all. If those rooms aren’t safe to work in, they aren’t safe for our families either.

 

[tgropp]

So I‘ve giving your post some thought and feel the need to respectfully disagree with a few key points here . When the teachers unions were fighting against online learning as an acceptable delivery model it was because it is not a substitute for in class learning and not the best delivery method for our kids in all circumstances . I don’t think there was anywhere this was made more evident than the mess it was when all kids has to transition to online learning environment in the Spring. However .. a global pandemic is an entirely different animal . They are fighting for safe working conditions. Maybe a better way to look at it is that it’s ironic the Ontario government was so keen to push to online learning but won’t consider it now that we need it for health and safety.

My second problem with your post is the assertion that as a health care worker you did your job so everyone else should have to as well. Nobody is saying they don’t want to do their job .. they just want to be safe doing it. My entire family are doctors and nurses.. you all had PPE and strict protocols for disease mitigation. When you didn’t , your unions went to bat for you or there was public outcry. You were lauded as heroes and honoured by the public. It’s a pretty far cry from what teachers are facing. Educators want a safe working environment , and money for the changes that need to be made to the school and classrooms. They can’t even get a mandate that people need to wear masks in their buildings . Everyone is so focused on what is best for their child’s mental health and learning that I feel some of us are forgetting their is a significant risk to educators and that hurts our kids too .

We should all be demanding truly safe working conditions for teachers . It benefits us all. If those rooms aren’t safe to work in, they aren’t safe for our families either.

And I totally respect your point of view. These are crazy times right now. There is a risk to everyone that Is working right now. Just not sure on how we can identify the people that should be working and the ones that should not report to their Working environment. Some parents can not have their children at home and be teachers at the same time While they are working. Mental health is increasing at at an alarming rate. I don’t know the answer but I just feel that getting the children back to school is a step in the right direction if done as safely as possible......that is the key. Here is hoping that your concerns are met for that safe environment.

 

[pigletto]

And I totally respect your point of view. These are crazy times right now. There is a risk to everyone that Is working right now. Just not sure on how we can identify the people that should be working and the ones that should not report to their Working environment. Some parents can not have their children at home and be teachers at the same time While they are working. Mental health is increasing at at an alarming rate. I don’t know the answer but I just feel that getting the children back to school is a step in the right direction if done as safely as possible......that is the key. Here is hoping that your concerns are met for that safe environment.

I agree. I think that the hardest part in all of this is that no matter how hard I try to come up with the right answers , there just doesn’t seem to be any that work for everyone. And that stinks.
Thank you for the friendly discussion. It’s not an easy one but it’s way easier when people are kind.

 

[hdrolfe]

CBC had an article this morning about back to school, based on research on COVID in children, from reading it seems that children under 10 are less likely to get infected, and thus not transmit it. I do wonder if the schools should focus on elementary aged kids being in classrooms (perhaps using the high schools) and more of the high school kids online. I know it wouldn't be all children, but certainly as kids get older there are some advantages, like being able to stay home alone while mom/dad are working. Whether they are responsible enough to get their school work done is debatable of course. I certainly know my son, at 10, is not ready to stay home along for a whole day. Even with me working, he still needs my time and attention throughout the day. He understand when I have a meeting or something, but I do have to adjust my day as I go. If he was younger? I can't see being able to both work and take care of him. If schools aren't safe how would a daycare be any better? Or having to use both?

I do get it. I have no desire to head back to my office until there is a vaccine. But my office is cubciles packed closer than 6 feet, with 4 elevators for a 10 story building. Even with masks there is little chance of maintaining social distancing. And yes, I can work from home. But I cannot work from home and teach my son at the same time. It didn't work in the spring and it won't work this fall. So the choice for me is really, send him to school to get an education, or let him fall even further behind. Keep him home and safe, or send him and increase the risk. Health now, versus his mental health later, and now a bit too since he was really missing his friends when he couldn't get out, and winter will be worse since he'll be in the house a lot and not able to go play so much. He is a smart kid, he is curious and has a great imagination, but he's also easily distracted and lacks motivation to learn the basics. He is very aware that he is different from his friends, and he does not want to be singled out at all. If he falls behind and doesn't move forward with them to grade 7 and high school, he will be devastated. He has enough issues with self esteem as it is.

This coming year is going to be hard on everyone.

 

[Maddysdaddy]

I don’t know the answer but I just feel that getting the children back to school is a step in the right direction if done as safely as possible......that is the key.

I haven’t heard anyone make the argument that in an ideal world, kids shouldn’t be in school. The question is how does a complete lack of social distancing + no mandatory masks + inadequate ventilation + inadequate cleaning = “as safely as possible”?

Baseball lasted less than a week before an outbreak started - and that was with fairly strict safety and testing protocols. Provinces already can’t keep up with testing, and that’s before our kids are sent back into the petri dishes we call schools.

Best case scenario, I can’t envision schools (at least here in Calgary) making it thru September before they’re shut down again because of an explosion in cases. I hope I’m wrong, but current trends based on people becoming more complacent (AB’s Chief Medical Officer said yesterday that the curve was no longer flattened) would suggest otherwise.

 

[Donald - my hero]

I'm truly on the sidelines of this discussion because my "kids" range in age from 28 - 34 (if you include the ones who married into the family, ones i gave birth to are 32 & 34) but i still feel I have an obligation as a member of society to be involved, concerned and take the time to be properly informed on all sides of this evolving and less-than-perfect situation. There will never be a one-size-fits all answer to education during or after COVID-19 because there wasn't one BEFORE! There are so few children who fit into the cookie-cutter image of what a "normal" student is expected to be based on guidelines set out nor are there many teachers who are able to do all that expected of them and/or do it well.

I have some very close connections to educators and administrators in Ontario and because of this I get to be a fly on the wall for their side of the story. We live in a townhouse complex that is filled with children in all levels of education from day care to post secondary so I'm part of the parking lot conversations for their side of the story (similar to the water cooler chats but with more swearing ) My heart is pulled in several different directions and it aches for all of you who are struggling with these very difficult and far-reaching decisions.

A friend just shared this well written letter to Ford, Lecce, board trustees and MPPs from a teacher who has decided to extend her parental leave until the end of 2020 and to keep her son home from school. I thought others might like to read her thoughts.

Return to School Open Letter

 

[pigletto]

I'm truly on the sidelines of this discussion because my "kids" range in age from 28 - 34 (if you include the ones who married into the family, ones i gave birth to are 32 & 34) but i still feel I have an obligation as a member of society to be involved, concerned and take the time to be properly informed on all side of this evolving and less-than-perfect situation. There will never be a one-size-fits all answer to education during or after COVID-19 because there wasn't one BEFORE! There are so few children who fit into the cookie-cutter image of what a "normal" student is expected to be based on guidelines set out nor are there many teachers who are able to do all that expected of them and/or do it well.

I have some very close connections to educators and administrators in Ontario and because of this I get to be a fly on the wall for their side of the story. We live in a townhouse complex that is filled with children in all levels of education from day care to post secondary so I'm part of the parking lot conversations for their side of the story (similar to the water cooler chats but with more swearing ) My heart is pulled in several different directions and it aches for all of you who are struggling with these very difficult and far-reaching decisions.

A friend just shared this well written letter to Ford, Lecce, board trustees and MPPs from a teacher who has decided to extend her parental leave until the end of 2020 and to keep her son home from school. I thought others might like to read her thoughts.

Return to School Open Letter

THIS!!!!
I can’t order a freakin’ Timbit without a plexiglass shield between my masked mug and that of a gloved, mask-clad cashier who has to endure our brief 30 second interaction before passing my order across the counter via a stainless steel tray duct taped to a hockey stick to ensure distancing. Tell me again how returning to school indoors, full classes, 6 hours a day, without PPE is even an option right now?

 

[Madame]

I’m going to have a conversation with DH tonight about the feasibility of taking an unpaid leave first semester. I am already not sleeping - I am very anxious by nature

Luckily as we advanced in our careers we kept the same small house and both car payments are finished as of this past May. Pretty sure that if we put a halt on vacation savings (where are we gonna go ) & the kids’ college/university savings, that we’ll be fine.

I could probably ask the group I’m setting up to barter/trade for my services- as long as we all stick to our bubble, there’s no reason their kids can’t be masked and dropped at my house to e-learn for the day. Lots of Immersion/French-language parents will be looking for help and I can control contact and the cleanliness of my own house.

 

[hdrolfe]

So I do get that teachers should have protective equipment, but it's a bit different to be in a chohort of 15 or so kids who are being monitored for temperature and illneess versus serving everyone in the public who may or may not even be wearing a mask and certainly doesn't need the temperature checked before they walk into that grocery store. And those people working in the stores are serving far more than 15 people who they can trace. I don't see how that compares. Especially adding in that kids (under 10) are shown to be less suseptible to the virus than all those adults.

I'd strongly suggest that the schools should be looking to countries that have successfully opened their schools, there have been a few. I have found this discussion eye opening in that it seems schools across the country are in really poor shape. I guess I have been lucky with my son's school, it's been well cleaned (I've seen the staff working when dropping off and picking up from daycare in the school), it's newer so no lead or asbestos, and, again, the school board plans do seem quite detailed and well thought out. I am gathering from all of you that those plans are something of a lie though, that they are telling parents what we want to hear to feel safe but in reality they won't be doing those things. I do feel that the first outbreak from a school will have the whole thing shut down, and they had better have a good plan in place for the online learning because the nonsense from the spring was useless and not worth the effort. I expect actual teaching to take place, not watch a video and answer some questions. To be honest here, if I had to send my son to the schools you all work in, he wouldn't be going.

 

[tgropp]

Would using Zoom for teaching be an option if an outbreak occurs again?

 

[Madame]

So I do get that teachers should have protective equipment, but it's a bit different to be in a chohort of 15 or so kids who are being monitored for temperature and illneess versus serving everyone in the public who may or may not even be wearing a mask and certainly doesn't need the temperature checked before they walk into that grocery store. And those people working in the stores are serving far more than 15 people who they can trace. I don't see how that compares. Especially adding in that kids (under 10) are shown to be less suseptible to the virus than all those adults.

I'd strongly suggest that the schools should be looking to countries that have successfully opened their schools, there have been a few. I have found this discussion eye opening in that it seems schools across the country are in really poor shape. I guess I have been lucky with my son's school, it's been well cleaned (I've seen the staff working when dropping off and picking up from daycare in the school), it's newer so no lead or asbestos, and, again, the school board plans do seem quite detailed and well thought out. I am gathering from all of you that those plans are something of a lie though, that they are telling parents what we want to hear to feel safe but in reality they won't be doing those things. I do feel that the first outbreak from a school will have the whole thing shut down, and they had better have a good plan in place for the online learning because the nonsense from the spring was useless and not worth the effort. I expect actual teaching to take place, not watch a video and answer some questions. To be honest here, if I had to send my son to the schools you all work in, he wouldn't be going.

I can only speak to my experience, but my hands were seriously tied in how much work, could I demand the kids show up to an online meeting etc. Our kids weren’t rolling out of bed til after lunch which was why I was conferencing so late in the evening with them. Some of them were working all day at grocery stores!!!

I cannot have a cohort in high school. I see 90 plus kids in a day! Their schedules are not the same so it won’t be teachers moving from room to room. It’s not possible. Instead of this ridiculous lack of planning, they should have figured it out!! They’ve had since March! I’ve been around ED for too long not to know what will happen - last minute, do this (even though it’s not possible) and then berate us after for not following the non-existent plan.

 

[hdrolfe]

I can only speak to my experience, but my hands were seriously tied in how much work, could I demand the kids show up to an online meeting etc. Our kids weren’t rolling out of bed til after lunch which was why I was conferencing so late in the evening with them. Some of them were working all day at grocery stores!!!

I cannot have a cohort in high school. I see 90 plus kids in a day! Their schedules are not the same so it won’t be teachers moving from room to room. It’s not possible. Instead of this ridiculous lack of planning, they should have figured it out!! They’ve had since March! I’ve been around ED for too long not to know what will happen - last minute, do this (even though it’s not possible) and then berate us after for not following the non-existent plan.

I think maybe elemntary and high schools need to have different plans, since they do work very differently? Though my son did have 4 teachers last year, and had to move rooms for most of his classes, they won't be able to do that this year. It has been a long time since high school but the majority of my classes I had the same kids with me, with some variation. I think online learning may work better for high school, provided they have the discipline necessary to do it. And the resources etc.

Also agree, they have had since March to plan this! Why are we waiting to the last minute? Oh right, the first few months were spent in denial thinking we'd be "back to normal" quickly. Even at the end of the school year they didn't really come out with a proper plan for the new year. They had time. It's frustrating for everyone for sure.

 

[susanv]

The school I work in is filthy. I'm sure there are some good "custodians" out there, but I think ours excel at nothing but "Candy Crush". I did the "cheerio test". Placed one cheerio on the edge of the sink right by the faucet. It sat, and sat, and sat. You guessed it, the sink was NEVER cleaned. We wipe down around the sink with "approved bleach solution" - Clorox wipes are not allowed...such a pain. Well we don't have to be concerned, just got the missive today: On line learning until Oct.

What province do you work in?

 

[susanv]

Would using Zoom for teaching be an option if an outbreak occurs again?

This wouldn't be an option for us. Our school did an amazing job with distance education, however we live in a valley in a rural area with little to no internet service. We pay through the nose for very spotty Rogers Infinity on our phones. It was horrible for google meets, zoom and downloading some assignments.

 

[BLAZEY]

Here in BC the education minister is set to give an announcement about September this coming week. For the past few weeks we have all been led to believe we will return to blended learning but now from what I hear, BC wants full time participation for elementary and middle school and blended for high school. Guess we will find out this week. Then the premier announced "be prepared to have a plan B in case the virus creates a second wave." My kids are going into grades 5&7 and will be going back with, what I hope, are extra precautions. I'll post again later this week with an update once our education minister makes his announcement.

I'm in BC too, DD11 is going into grade 6, which in our district is the start of middle school. I really want her to be able to go back, she didn't go back in June, it just wasn't worth more change as she had gotten used to the online learning. She had a great report card at the end of June. the missed all the celebratory events the school usually does for the Grade 5 kids moving on. I honestly hope they do send the kids back, I have no issue with them requiring masks, or any other preventative measures to help slow the spread or exposure to the virus.

 

[TammyLynn33]

Baseball lasted less than a week before an outbreak started - and that was with fairly strict safety and testing protocols. Provinces already can’t keep up with testing, and that’s before our kids are sent back into the petri dishes we call schools.

Respectfully totally disagree . Baseball players were in no way bubbled or quarantined before their mess started . They are travelling into and from states with recommended 14 day quarantines ( which they and their media aren’t doing obviously ) and if you’ve watched 5 mins of any game they are high-fives all around and not sitting 6 feet apart.. ( which had they bubbled before wouldn’t have mattered ai much )

NHL and NBA have a chance because if their bubbling . Baseball has no hope in .. with their travel

 

[TammyLynn33]

CBC had an article this morning about back to school, based on research on COVID in children, from reading it seems that children under 10 are less likely to get infected, and thus not transmit it. I do wonder if the schools should focus on elementary aged kids being in classrooms (perhaps using the high schools) and more of the high school kids online. I know it wouldn't be all children, but certainly as kids get older there are some advantages, like being able to stay home alone while mom/dad are working. Whether they are responsible enough to get their school work done is debatable of course. I certainly know my son, at 10, is not ready to stay home along for a whole day. Even with me working, he still needs my time and attention throughout the day. He understand when I have a meeting or something, but I do have to adjust my day as I go. If he was younger? I can't see being able to both work and take care of him. If schools aren't safe how would a daycare be any better? Or having to use both?

I do get it. I have no desire to head back to my office until there is a vaccine. But my office is cubciles packed closer than 6 feet, with 4 elevators for a 10 story building. Even with masks there is little chance of maintaining social distancing. And yes, I can work from home. But I cannot work from home and teach my son at the same time. It didn't work in the spring and it won't work this fall. So the choice for me is really, send him to school to get an education, or let him fall even further behind. Keep him home and safe, or send him and increase the risk. Health now, versus his mental health later, and now a bit too since he was really missing his friends when he couldn't get out, and winter will be worse since he'll be in the house a lot and not able to go play so much. He is a smart kid, he is curious and has a great imagination, but he's also easily distracted and lacks motivation to learn the basics. He is very aware that he is different from his friends, and he does not want to be singled out at all. If he falls behind and doesn't move forward with them to grade 7 and high school, he will be devastated. He has enough issues with self esteem as it is.

This coming year is going to be hard on everyone.

Did you see Ottawa’s numbers . As of Sunday 55 kids under the age of 19 and a lot 0-9 From the 3 daycare outbreaks.. I’m sure it’s higher now I’ve just been swamped with work, school and kids. Ottawa is the new hot spot and it’s affecting kids

 

[hdrolfe]

Did you see Ottawa’s numbers . As of Sunday 55 kids under the age of 19 and a lot 0-9 From the 3 daycare outbreaks.. I’m sure it’s higher now I’ve just been swamped with work, school and kids. Ottawa is the new hot spot and it’s affecting kids

My understanding is that the majority of new cases are in teens and 20's, below 10 there is only a handful and not new as of today but over the weekend. But perhaps I am not looking at the right numbers? If there is a better place to check I'm happy to see it. I am looking at the Ottawa Public Health but it's more summary totals than day by day totals.