car #1 or #2 people???

[raidermatt]

Again, though, the fact remains that attendance at the parks are down. If there aren't enough people to justify keeping four theme parks open late, then there aren't enough people -

If you're going to accept this position, you (generic you) had better be sure you are right. You must be sure that the cuts in hours are not at least part of the reason you are experiencing low attendance. Because if you are wrong, things will only get worse.

Same with other cuts. Disney can't compare itself to its competition and use them as justification for making the same level of cuts. Disney's audience expects more, and is willing to pay for it. When Disney takes away this differentiation by doing the same thing as the other guys, its going to result in long-term problems.

Its not that I don't think they should at all react to outside economic factors. When they cut hours, shows, etc after 9/11, I thought they were justified. However, they are now not even returning hours to post 9/11 levels. This October's hours have been slashed from 2001 levels by over 10%. There's just no way to view that as a necessity brought on by outside economic forces. Unless you view ABC as an outside econoimc force.

 

[d-r]

Originally posted by raidermatt

Same with other cuts. Disney can't compare itself to its competition and use them as justification for making the same level of cuts. Disney's audience expects more, and is willing to pay for it. When Disney takes away this differentiation by doing the same thing as the other guys, its going to result in long-term problems.

Matt - I posted the hours for the other parks to point out that wdw had LONGER hours than the other parks, not equal. Disney's audience is getting more, right now and this fall.

Its not that I don't think they should at all react to outside economic factors. When they cut hours, shows, etc after 9/11, I thought they were justified. However, they are now not even returning hours to post 9/11 levels. This October's hours have been slashed from 2001 levels by over 10%. There's just no way to view that as a necessity brought on by outside economic forces. Unless you view ABC as an outside econoimc force.

I don't have the attendance figures, I don't know what the revenue per guest is, I don't know how those compare to other years, I don't know what it costs to operate a theme park. I do honestly believe that the people who run wdw are trying to thread a line between what is economically viable and guest satisfaction. I think I've said that before, but I'm not sure if that was the point I was really trying to make here, which was that I think that the internet contributes to dissatisfaction. I really believe that.

DR

 

[d-r]

Originally posted by mrtoadslastride


Why??? According to posts in another thread (based on info from Newsweek), Universal is up 11% this year while Disney is down 6%. I know the reasons for this difference can be explained by several factors, but the simple fact remains - Disney's closest rival is increasing attendance while Disney's is shrinking.

Maybe some of the cuts which you believe are aimed at keeping Disney afloat are driving visitors away. Disney seems to be playing a game with WDW guests, "How much can we cut before you stop coming back?"

I think you are making a very important point here, Mr. Toad, and I'm not sure where that point is.

However, as for Universal's attendance numbers, someone has already made a nice case on here concerning the discounts offered to locals, but I would also guess that some of this is regression to the mean - particularly in the case of attendance at IOA which was underperforming last year anyway.

DR

 

[raidermatt]

Matt - I posted the hours for the other parks to point out that wdw had LONGER hours than the other parks, not equal. Disney's audience is getting more, right now and this fall

Disney's audience is getting less than Disney's audience got before, even when compared to Oct. 2001. That's what Disney's audience cares about. They may have longer hours than Universal, but that only has a small amount of relevance. Most of Disney's guests didn't choose WDW over Universal. They chose it over Hawaii, New York, Yellowstone, Washington DC, Europe, The Caribbean, Las Vegas, etc....

I think that the internet contributes to dissatisfaction.

Only in the sense that there is more information available. If hours aren't cut, or EE doesn't go away, or there aren't fewer parades, or whatever, there is no need for dissatisfaction. The internet allows people to get this information quickly and easily. Yes, sometimes you will see folks getting riled up over information that isn't even true or is only a rumor, but that doesn't cause widespread dissatisfaction. Info on hours, shows, prices, etc is easily available when it comes to Disney. Those cuts are undeniable, and there are some unhappy people.

That doesn't mean everybody who is voiceing displeasure no longer wants to visit, or won't have a great time. It just means they are unhappy about certain things. Its getting louder now because the financial perfomance is slipping. Disney is not even considering the possibility that their gradual cutting over the last 5 years is starting to have a tangible negative affect (at least not publically).

We should be able to all agree that you can only cut so much before you are negatively impacting the bottom line. A lot of people think Disney has now crossed that line. Mgmt's response? Cut further, and blame the economy.

Well, if they're right, we'll know soon enough. But if they are wrong, it will be a VERY costly mistake.

It costs a lot more (10x more, according to Walt) to get a dissatisfied customer back than it does to keep him happy in the first place.

 

[Captain Crook]

I agree Matt, but if it were not for the internet and these discussion boards and the ability to get scads of information about anything in seconds Disney would only be facing this crisis with about 10% of the people currently aware in the know...Attendance will still fall but the rate of decent would have been lower because it would take personal experienice (which seldom would be obtained quickly) to ferret the information necessary to decide that some other vacation destination might be more prudent than Disney. Most consumers would be unaware.

Now if someone has an inkling that somethings amis they can come to the DIS and see immediately that Chicken Landbaron has decried "the sky is fallng" and then read the posts from all the naysayers, interpreet that since most of these fellow Disney lovers are well spoken and logical that this must be right... "By gosh, Disney IS on their last legs. Martha cancel the Disney reservations, that Eisner's a bast*rd and he ain't gettin' any of our money...We're going to Idaho!"

Yeah, I think the internet has had an effect.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

WOW!! Is there a lot of catching up to do!!! One thing struck me as I was reading and I skipped a lot to post it. If it has been covered I'm sorry. If not it is definitely food for thought.

Finally, I was a kid during the 1970's, but as I seem to remember the oil embargo (everyone drove to WDW at the time) and stagflation really hurt the economy. Did Disney ever close MK at 6 in August then? The economy had to have been worse then, but you didn't see Disney make the type of cuts they are now making.

Cutting hours is the Ei$ner way to deal with this problem. Or it can be labeled: Disney®!!

Do you know what the "Walt" way was? That happens to be that glorious time that Disney enticed people with the Electric Light Parade, twice a night, and a 1:00 a.m. closing time!! MAGIC!! PURE MAGIC!!!

And that's the difference!!!

OK, I’m going back to do some more catch up, but I WILL RETURN!!!!

 

[raidermatt]

Captain, I seriously doubt there are very many people who read a negative post or two and then cancel their trip. And if they read more than that, they will read both sides and be able to make an informed decision.

In fact, they will read how even Chicken Landbaron and most of his cronies still do LOVE going to WDW.

So I agree, that the internet has an effect, and the effect is the quicker dissemination of information. And in the case of info related to WDW, it pretty darn accurate.

The speed with which the info gets out just means that changes, both positive AND negative will have a quicker impact (think how quickly word would spread if EE were reinstated, for instance). However, it doesn't change the ultimate outcome, and therefore, really is irrelevant to discussions about the merit of Disney's decisions.

Its not that I disagree, it just that I don't see how it really matters???

 

[Captain Crook]

OK.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Chicken Landbaron

Huh? What did I miss? Or am I being dense again?

 

[raidermatt]

Captain- Ok,ok.

Lord Baron- The Captain used the term, I assume as a Chicken Little reference. You know, "The Disney sky is falling!!!" No harm intended...

 

[Captain Crook]

Oh, I think 'some' harm was intended! Landbaron's been getting a little too feathery around here so I thought some rufflin' was in order. Of course if any egg layin' were to be needed we'd have to have a hen instead of a chicken and I never heard of a 'Hen Little' so it must be DVCLandbaron.

OK, so now that this is cleared up...

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK!! I have read this entire thread twice now and I am ready!!! And I found that “Chicken” reference my Captain! And just like Lucy, you got some splainin’ to do!! Rustle feathers indeed!!!!

Mr. R (or should it be Mr. D-R? Hmmm?)

As much as word of mouth does. But don’t you think that the effect could be equally positive as it IS negative. I mean I visited a Tolkien site when I first found out the movie was being made two years ago. I never posted on it and in fact never even registered. I just lurked a bit to find out what I could about the movie. And while there were certainly some die-hard fans that SCREAMED about every little word of dialogue, by and large the balance was that a pretty good film was in the offing!! You read the posts and the linked articles and anyone with any type of intelligence came away with a pretty evenhanded portrait of an eagerly awaited film. I visited after the film came out and found the same sort of reasonablness. Some absolute FLAMES and some that appeared to be on New Line’s payroll. But by just lurking I was able to tell that the film was pretty well received and liked by the vast majority.

Somehow I think that that if that site, of admitted Tolkien nuts, existed when that cartoon version came out in the late ‘70’s early eighties, I think I would have gone away with an entirely different feeling. One of negativity. One of the film being a failure.

Is this the fault of the Internet? Or is it the fault of the product?

I think that if Disney were producing top-notch ‘stuff’ all the LandBarons, Frozen people, Mr. Matts and AVs in the world could not out shout the masses. When I got here I was pretty much a lone voice in the wilderness. I was definitely being out-shouted by the folks here. But about a year and a half ago I noticed a great change. Many more posts started to agree with me than disagree. Slowly. Much more slowly than I had hoped, but slowly those masses started to acknowledge that “something was rotten in the state of Denmark!!” I point to Peter Pirate, Gcurling, Mr. Matt (now riding shotgun!) and many, many others. Even the head of the resistance, our own Scoop, now admits that it is time for a change in head mouse!! Now that’s something!!!!

Now I agree that the internet was the mode of communication. And it didn’t carry a pretty message (at least from me). But if all were rosy, “we” would be out shouted, out thought and out-posted!! And a lurker here, with no vested interest, would take away a picture of magic and pixie dust. As it is I believe that most carry away a picture of greed and “knuckleheadedness”!! But I could be wrong!!

I honestly believe that they keep the park hours open based upon the attendance levels, and I have witnessed hours being extended based upon need.

So you are telling me that when the MK closes EVERY night at 10:00 during July it is solely bases on attendance and has nothing whatsoever to do with cost cutting and profit boosting? And that the crowds were LESS this July than say in 1972 or 1975 or 1981 or 1985 or 1991 or 1995 or 1998 or… Whoops!! Here’s when the crowds evidently started to go away because that’s when they started cutting hours in July!!!! Is that what you’re saying?

They want the parks to be open later - because the parks will be less crowded. The major reason that they seem to want the longer hours is so the crowds will be thinned out - but if the crowd is thinned out, how is economically viable to keep the park open those extra hours?

NO!!! That is wrong!! TOTALLY WRONG!!! It is merely a side benefit for those who preserver to the very end (of which I am one). Now please understand the concept. It is the same concept that is employed with EE. And even though I never used it personally I was greatly impacted by its elimination!! Same as you, whether you know it or not, are impacted by the reduction of hours (if you visit in the summer) no matter if you stayed late or not!!!

Why? Because it gives EVERYONE options!!!! Want to watch a parade!! No problem!! You’ve got two to choose from!! Not one where EVERYONE is packed like sardines, 40 deep, the poor little kids not having a chance of seeing even the top of the floats. Want to skip the parade and go on a couple rides!! FINE!! Have a ball. You want to get away for a few hours!! Go for it. People like DisDuck are now in the park, but they won’t be there tonight!! Want to enjoy the afternoon sunshine in the MK? Great!! Those idiots like LandBaron aren’t there. They are sitting beside the Old Key West swimming pool and not forced to see EVERYTHING with EVERYONE in the blazing sun!!! Want to stick around to the very end at midnight on am Monday (the best day to do that BTW)? Fine!! You’ll love it because half the crowd got up early to do EE and there’s no way they are going to stick around!!

Do you get it yet? It offers choices. Options. And it thins the crowd throughout the entire day. Your entire stay. And if the rains come, as they always do in July and August, that’s just fine!! Why? Cause MK’s open until midnight again tomorrow!! Akuna Matata! What a wonderful phase!! Akuna Matata! Unfortunately a passing phase, cause the current management won’t let me use it!! Instead they FORCE me and you (collectively) to do it all together! And while I love my fellow Disney fans I don’t want to be herded like cattle with them, at the whim of management, all to save a couple bucks!! How about not making stupid business moves that the parks have to finance and letting us make some choices again!!!

{quote]Many of the same people who seem to cheer any sign of bad economic news for the Disney company - because it might oust Eisner - seem to be unable to understand that cut backs are necessary.[/quote] Cutback!!!?? Necessary!!?? Just what are they cutting Mr. R? You seem to think that they are cutting expenditures. Saving a few bucks, eh? You’re as mixed up as Ei$ner!! He thinks he’s selling you a ticket, some plush toys, a Pecos Bill burger and a soda!! And the hours, cast members, and paint is merely considered overhead, which can be added in good times and reduced in bad times. He, and you are terrible wrong!!

I see it in a totally different light. They are cutting their product! They are cutting what they used to be so good at selling. And we bought and bought and even bought some more. We bought with our dollars and more importantly we bought with our return business and most important we bought with our FAVORABLE (alomist gushing) word of mouth!! Yes sir!! They sold us an experience. They sold us magic. D-R!! They sold us a SHOW!!! And we ALL bought it. Lock stock and barrel!! And the SHOW is what they are cutting!! Not mere expenditures!!

I think they have made some really good moves to weather the storm.

Really!!?? Gee! I don’t see any!!

I also read about Walt, and I can understand some of the comments that are basically "what would Walt do?" but right now is a time that you also have to ask "what would Roy do?"

Again we disagree. In the middle of the Great Depression did Walt “listen “ to Roy, or did he make Snow White anyway (mortgaging himself, his company and even Roy to the hilt!)? During the gas crisis and that poor economic time of the late seventies early eighties, did they “listen” to the Roy types? Or did they add the Electric Light Parade and extend hours to 1:00 a.m. AND open EPCOT, which cost over a billion at the time!!??

I find myself often getting turned off by this board lately.

Is it because there is a tremendous amount of complaining regarding the current administration’s philosophical choices lately? Cause if it is, then yes!! I have to agree with you!! The truth does hurt sometimes. And I can understand that as you see the reality of the situation you may want to blame the conversation vehicle instead of the ones who are truly at fault. It’s a very old problem that stretches way back to the ancient Greeks. You know, don’t kill the messenger!!

There is less about rumors and news than there is about moaning and whining (and yeah, I remember how bad I got flamed a year or two ago for calling something whining).

Yeah! I know. Not many rumors at all!! I wish there were, but it’s kind of hard to dream those impossible dreams when your job may be in the dumper the next day!!

But I do take issue with your phrasing. And maybe it was a mistake. Moaning? Yes!! Good lord, there’s a bunch of well deserved moaning!! But whining!?!? I really don’t see it. And I’m not being purposely obtuse. I really don’t!!! Please let me know, even in a PM, when you see it! Cause, quite frankly, I don’t!

Also let me know if this post made you feel flamed, because that was NOT my intent!!

 

[Another Voice]

Why is there an assumption that the Internet is only capable of spreading negative opinions? Seems to me that the 'net is only a communications media where people can say both good and bad things. Certainly Disney and the other studios believe this otherwise they would not spend so much time, effort and money creating phantom "fan" websites and hiring posters to get influence discussion boards (oops - at least that's what the "rumors" say away).

And for all the bad "Internet talk" that WDW has gotten recently - it seems that DisneySeas has received far more positive (if not downright glowing) "buzz".

Perhaps, like it always has been, it's the show that matters most. People without the skill or the will to produce a good show will always blame the reviews, the marketing, the buzz. They'll blame everyone except the real reason why the movie, show, park failed -

Themseleves.

 

[JeffH]

It offers choices. Options

Let's see, the options THEN were:
Magic Kingdom in the morning Poly or Contemporary in the afternoon Magic Kingdom in the evening.
or
Magic Kingdom in the morning, Magic Kingdom in the afternoon, then Poly or Contemporary in the evening.
or
Poly or Contemporary in the morning, Magic Kingdom in the afternoon, then the Magic Kingdom in the evening
That's about it aside from perhaps a trip to the marketplace or the Hoop-De-Doo-Revue.
And during the off season, when the Magic Kingdom closed before dark, what were the options, then?
Then Epcot opened adding 1 more (nice) option, and it soon took over 'night' duty, staying open until 10pm every night with Illuminations.

The options NOW are:
Animal Kingdom, Epcot, MGM, Magic Kingdom, almost 20 resorts to visit, and a huge entertainment complex called Downtown Disney (East, West and Pleasure Island) and perhaps a trip to the Wide World of Sports, or a round of golf or mini-golf at one of the many courses.

I think one of the main reasons that Disney had long hours, way back when, was simply because there were no other options. Now the options are so numerous that you can't possibly entertain them all in a single trip. The fact that the 'new' options are no longer convenient to some does not make this bad, otherwise why not expect the Magic Kingdom to be open 24 hours so you can go between midnight and 8am when the crowds would be REAL light. The fact that there are SO many other options, is good, VERY good. In fact, WDW is 'open' later than ever, now with Downtown Disney open real late. Your options now go from a multitude of early morning character breakfasts throughout the resort, to late late night of entertainment at Downtown Disney...no more Magic Kingdom, Magic Kingdom, Magic Kingdom.
We've spent about 500 days at WDW to date, and last Tuesday was the first time we enjoyed Alice's Tea Party at the Grand Floridian, and we still have not done LaNuba. I would give up late nights at the Magic Kingdom for the 'option' of enjoying the likes of all those new options that I mentioned above, one of those which is "sitting beside the Old Key West swimming pool", which opened in 1991.

They can't leave everything open 16 hours a day just so some guests can have the 'option' to walk around a deserted park, if you want this, plan a trip during the off season. I still fail to understand how eliminating MKpm, while adding all that now exists is a negative.
If you really just gots to have the park to yourself, then buy it for the evening.
And as far as fighting for a spot for the night parade. This is only a problem for those who choose to play right up until the parade starts, we stake out our spot 2 hours before the parade and take turns exploring Main Street until the parade starts. Try it, it works.

 

[Captain Crook]

Who said the internet only offers negative opinions? It's just that this is what we're currently taking about. Certainly the internet is responsible for wonderful buzz as well...Just look at how much the general public knows about the new hotels & casinos in Vegas...Their appeal is far more nationwide than times before the net...Or look at Shrek, a ton of positive remarks must have been made to make this movie such a winner.

But we're talking about Disney...A company that has lived under glass from the inception and even more so since the growth stages of the 90's when people were worried that the mouse might devour the world.

I don't see how any of you can argue that the negative items reported here on sites like this excacerbate and expediate the resulting fallout. I am not saying that it's unwarranted or unfair. I am not even saying that it shouldn't happen. I'm only saying that it's a brave new world for very public companies such as Disney and even those not so public companies thanks to the intense scrutiny of millions of wannabes. It is bound to have an effect, IMO.

 

[DaveO]

LB- Please do not try and whine about the Cubs. I have to deal with the Red Sox.

Back in the 'Good Ole Days' during off season there were NEVER fireworks or night time parades in MK. In the 90's with attendance up Disney started to do these night time activities during the week and weekends. Now with attendace down they have reduced the night time entertainment. See the 'Good ole days' are never as good as it seems. Time makes things seem better than they were.

One mistake I hate disney making is COMMUNICATION. They should not be posting 6pm closing times for August. I say POSTING because I can almost gaurantee these will be extended. Everyone is getting upset (rightfully so) with no need. When I went in April they had posted reduced hours but when I got there everything was opened early and hours extended by 2 or 3 hours than what was posted. They should STOP doing this it is bad PR and makes folks change there vacation plans for no reason.

I picked 12 - 36 months because we just now are seeing the mistakes DCA and cutting hours come to life. I do not have an issue with building C ticket rides - spinners for the kids and DinoRama. But now it is time for E tickets!! And my expectations are ToT and Splash Mountain and yes Test Track ( I know I will hear about this one!) This will take time.

Also I do not see the issue with building all the hotels. Before CBR was built I could never have stayed on site. This opens up the 'magic' to all. Like I said some people LOVE the All Stars. This is how they financed some of the expansions. And DVC is a win win situation for guests and Disney.

I am also going to come out of the closet ........


It is time for Eisner to go. When Wall Street is questioning the leadership then nothing good can come of it - even if you might be the right person to turn it around.

Dave O.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

It is bound to have an effect, IMO.

I’m not even sure we should be talking!! CHICKEN indeed!!! HUMPH!! Where’s the Pirate anyway?!? I think I like him better!!

Anyway, I agree it has an effect. I think that effect is given way too much credit, especially by we who use it, but I will grant you it does have an effect!!

But in my way of thinking, that effect could have been positive. And the reason it is not positive is because they don’t deserve it!! Plain and simple.

 

[Captain Crook]

We can agree to that. This is the way it is and they'll be getting their just deserts one way or another. It isn't unfair, it isn't insideous but it is something no one heretofore has had to concern themselves with much.

And don't worry about the chicken comment... I had to pull you into this thread somehow!

I thought you once said you liked me better???

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I thought you once said you liked me better???

Nah! Actually I don't like either of you!! But you're the best Car #1 has to offer!!! How's that for slim pickin's!?!?

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

you might think that there is nothing "special" about staying at a wdw resort

My point was that the numbers we saw in another thread suggested that the high end Orlando hotels were getting back on track, while the low end was suffering, so it was reasonable that Disney, who sells to the low end, would see less rebound than Universal. Further, that it was Eisner's decision to "strip down" the Magic to compete in that low-end market, in the first place.

I was trying to make the point that the market now saw Disney as less special, saw it now as a discount item to be bought at the last minute because you knew discounts would become available; and that was a predictable conclusion to a choice made years ago (and consistently since) concerning hotels.

my perspective about the resorts is so different from yours that I can't even really reply to you

I made no value judgement of the experience itself.

I'm positing whether Disney had a perfect number of hotels and were blindsided by cruel cruel fate or Disney built too much and grabbed at a particularly fickle section of the market that was never their core audience until Eisner's time, and was now reaping what they've sown in closed resorts and bargain prices.

That's a question I'd be interested in hearing different answers to, and I won't tell anyone if you stay off-site or not.

-WFH