...Colorblind and all that is wrong with it.

Queen2PrincessG

DIS Veteran
Joined
Sep 19, 2010
I know that saying you “don’t see color” or kids don't see color seems ok BUT it is not. I don’t think Pete knows or realizes how offensive it is to a person of color to hear those words. By saying you don’t see color you are washing away peoples struggle, history. People of color want you to see race, we just don’t want you to use it against us. There is a big difference. Do you notice the difference between a rose and violet? Would you be flower blind? Its sickening to hear Theresa say her children are colorblind, after her defense of the Confederate flag.

As for the idea that apportion is ludicrous? Marc Jacobs could have used models, black models with colored dread-locks. Did he? no. Why not? Why is the hairstyle of the people ok to use but not the people themselves?

When you're so privileged you don't see the issue with saying you don't see color. I don't think that Disney meant anything by having this costume. I also think people need to understand its not about them.
 
Yes, facts are important. MJ did have diversity within his ready to wear collection16 but not in the specific runway show discussed. The 2017 show didn't not have black models wearing the wool dreads. This after federal appeals court has ruled that banning an employee from wearing their hair in locs is not racial discrimination
 
I'm wrong, excuse me he had three black females. Lets bow down. It is still cultural appropriation. Again why not use black models with naturally dreaded hair?

To stay on topic though, It's insulting to say you are colorblind especially when you are the majority. The implied idea that the Pacific people are being upset just to be upset is rude. The idea that you would over look the struggles of multiple cultures to try and appear unbiased is just as rude.
 
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Excuse me he had three black females. Lets bow down. It is still cultural appropriation. Again why not use black models with naturally dreaded hair?

Gosh, you took what I posted as a request for anyone to bow down?

We have gone from "he had no black females" to "he only had three black females" in a matter of minutes and you have decided because of these photos that these were the only black females.

None of the models have natural hair. None. They all have rainbow hair and thats not a natural style for anyone.

Boy George, Cyndi Lauper, Lana Wachowski (the transgendered director of Tha Matrix), Ani DeFranco and Lady Gaga have all styled their hair in dreads at one time or another.

People dye, curl, straighten, braid and bleach their hair all the time.

Could this not be a form of individual expression, artistic expression or the right to wear their hair any way they choose?
 
Excuse me he had three black females. Lets bow down. It is still cultural appropriation. Again why not use black models with naturally dreaded hair?
Gosh, you took what I posted as a request for anyone to bow down?

We have gone from "he had no black females" to "he only had three black females" in a matter of minutes and you have decided because of these photos that these were the only black females.

None of the models have natural hair. None. They all have rainbow hair and thats not a natural style for anyone.

Boy George, Cyndi Lauper, Lana Wachowski (the transgendered director of Tha Matrix), Ani DeFranco and Lady Gaga have all styled their hair in dreads at one time or another.

People dye, curl, straighten, braid and bleach their hair all the time.

Could this not be a form of individual expression, artistic expression or the right to wear their hair any way they choose?

And I like I said, I was wrong he used a few ethnic models. Betsey Johnson has worn braids or dreadlock extensions from the day I wore one of her dresses in 1989. BJ completely embraces where the style has come from. Yes, it can be a form of individual expression BUT what you are missing is that when the culture is not at least given the nod, the: yes we love it and want to embrace it, it becomes apportion. Marc Jacobs just wants to use the style, yes great but at least give the nod. When its placed in a full fashion show, during a climate such as is going on in America right now, with no acknowledgement, its just not correct or ok. Im not sure if its even because you need to be of that culture. Just seems really rude like saying you're colorblind.
 
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And I like I said, I was wrong he used a few ethnic models. Betsey Johnson has worn braids or dreadlock extensions from the day I wore one of her dresses in 1989. BJ completely embraces where the style has come from. Yes, it can be a form of individual expression BUT what you are missing is that when the culture is not at least given the nod, the, yes we love it and want to embrace it. It becomes apportion. Marc Jacobs just wants to use the style, yes great but at least give the nod. When its placed in a full fashion show, during a climate such as is going on in America right now, with no acknowledgement, its just not correct.

So Marc Jacobs should have "given the nod" to the Egyptian and Indian cultures also? Maybe the Viking culture too, they wore dreadlocks as well.
 
And I like I said, I was wrong he used a few ethnic models. Betsey Johnson has worn braids or dreadlock extensions from the day I wore one of her dresses in 1989. BJ completely embraces where the style has come from. Yes, it can be a form of individual expression BUT what you are missing is that when the culture is not at least given the nod, the: yes we love it and want to embrace it, it becomes apportion. Marc Jacobs just wants to use the style, yes great but at least give the nod. When its placed in a full fashion show, during a climate such as is going on in America right now, with no acknowledgement, its just not correct or ok. Im not sure if its even because you need to be of that culture. Just seems really rude like saying you're colorblind.

I appreciate your comments. I truly do, but I think we are stretching a bit.

So what you are saying is that any time a person of any color changes their hairstyle to one that originated somewhere other than their on ethnicity, they should give the originating ethnicity "a nod"?

I'd love to know what you think that may look like.

All that being said, I try and be as unbiased and conscious of any racism that I have had bred into me by being 57 years old...and I am still learning and still evolving, but I try everyday.
 
I appreciate your comments. I truly do, but I think we are stretching a bit.

So what you are saying is that any time a person of any color changes their hairstyle to one that originated somewhere other than their on ethnicity, they should give the originating ethnicity "a nod"?

I'd love to know what you think that may look like.

All that being said, I try and be as unbiased and conscious of any racism that I have had bred into me by being 57 years old...and I am still learning and still evolving, but I try everyday.

Not exactly. This isn't just someone changing their hair. It is a well known designer using a specific type of hairstyle, one that black women and men are still fighting to be allowed to wear at work mind you, and not acknowledging it. For alli know MJ could support them but who knows because he hasn't said anything. In the industry of fashion designers discuss how they come up with their ideas, what influences their collections, Its actually quite a big part of releasing a clothing line.

What i'm saying is that when you pull from a culture, especially one that has been and is still constantly mocked, beaten, killed, raped, judged, at times placed as not worth representation, I would hope you would acknowledge them.

I personally think you're great and find you to be rather level headed. I agree with you 99% of the time, just not on this topic. Im asking you to please don't say you're colorblind because its not true. You see color, what you don't see is that anyone is beneath you or anyone else. You are smart enough to see the struggles of the native american, to be almost wiped out by invaders and still fighting to keep land. You are smart enough to see the fight of the African American being placed into slavery, separated from family and to this day, be a target of many people simply because of their race. Seeing race allows you to be empathic of the struggle and an alley. Again I ask, would you ignore the differences between a violet and a rose?
 
I appreciate what you are saying.

I never said I was colorblind. I did say that I think younger generations are starting to be colorblind and it's been pointed out to me that those words were much less than perfect. I should have said that I think younger generations are less prone to see race (gender, religion sexual preference etc) as an issue. As I said....i am still evolving.

I think the fact that black women and men are still fighting to be allowed to wear dreads at work is an issue that needs to be addressed, but I don't see that being angry at Marc jacobs for using rainbow colored dreads is a way to change anything.In actuality, I think outrage over something like this hurts more than helps.

There are many many reasons to be angry, hurt and outraged. All we need to do is watch the news and see another tragedy unfold.

Arguing over synthetic rainbow hair used in a fashion show dilutes any conversation that needs to happen.

This a quote from the article I referenced above:

This is a quote from the article I mentioned above.

"Neither the hairstylist, Guido Palau, nor Jacobs, mentioned black culture or Rastafarians specifically as a source of inspiration. Instead, they mentioned street style, director Lana Wachowski, punk, Boy George and an enormous mishmash of cultural references.

All of those references are legitimate and real. And there was nothing about the clothes or the set — a stage filled with hundreds of dangling lightbulbs — that suggested the designer had disrespected black culture and its connection to black people, black politics, black struggle.

He took artistic license with a hairstyle that has seen multiple iterations and riffed on it yet again."

As I mentioned on the show yesterday...I think intent is important.

Being angry over what many would consider a small thing dulls the senses of those that need to hear your anger over the important things.
 
It seems like you are using semantics because you want to start an argument. The members of the podcast were trying to make it clear that they didn't make judgements based on the color of one's skin and they have taught their children to do the same thing. You have complained on another discussion that the team has too many southern women, so picking apart what was a statement meant to infer nothing except that they see all people as equal is a bit far fetched and possibly stems from the fact that one of the people making the statement was a southern woman. My daughter-in-law was a southern black woman, my son is a southern white man. She often told people she was so pleased with the fact that the man she married and his family was color blind. It is a common statement used everywhere now days. They were also very clear that they didn't think Disney was trying to offend a culture of people on purpose and acknowledged that for some island people the tatoos were sacred but that they themselves did not have enough information to say one way or another whether the costume in question was offensive. They did not imply that the Pacific people were upset to just be upset, as a matter of fact they said just the opposite.
 
Like John said I don't even know what being insensitive is anymore. Best thing a person can do is keep quiet.
 
When you're so privileged you don't see the issue with saying you don't see color. I don't think that Disney meant anything by having this costume. I also think people need to understand its not about them.

Cringe. No one outside the internet talks like this - and as someone who is half black being colorblind is absolutely the right way to go.
 
Is this for real?

Big ole news flash!!! Pretty much every race and color have worn dreadlocks since the beginning of the human race. The fact you think of it only as a style worn by black people is ignorant.
 
Yes, facts are important. MJ did have diversity within his ready to wear collection16 but not in the specific runway show discussed. The 2017 show didn't not have black models wearing the wool dreads. This after federal appeals court has ruled that banning an employee from wearing their hair in locs is not racial discrimination

If you are referring to this decision, http://media.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/files/201413482.pdf, then you are not quite following the nuances of the decision.

The decision does not conclude that a dreadlocks ban could never be based on an individual's race. One important part of the decision is that the EEOC only asserted an intentional race discrimination claim (which we call "disparate treatment"). It did not assert an unintentional discrimination claim (which we call disparate impact). An example of disparate impact discrimination is that if, with all the good intentions in the world, an employer adopts a racially neutral policy that has the effect (typically accessed by statistics) of causing a more harmful impact on a class of individuals because of that classes' race, that could violate federal law. (So, in this sense, intention does not matter.)

The difference in the two theories is fundamental but for reasons only it knows, the EEOC chose not to argue that the dreadlocks ban disproportionately impacted blacks.

Instead, the EEOC argued the ban was intentional discrimination because of race. Intentional race discrimination has historically been meant to apply to immutable characteristics, not social choices (which, as I said, can still be the basis of an unintentional discrimination type of claim). Obviously, skin color is an immutable characteristic. So to, the court explained, can be "hair texture" but that doesn't mean that a hairstyle associated with that hair texture is itself immutable. Applying this precedent, the court explained its ruling:

Critically, the EEOC's proposed amended complaint did not allege that dreadlocks themselves are an immutable characteristic of black persons, and in fact stated that black persons choose to wear dreadlocks because that hairstyle is historically, physiologically, and culturally associated with their race. That dreadlocks are a "natural outgrowth" of the texture of black hair does not make them an immutable characteristic of race. Under Willingham and Garcia, the EEOC failed to state a plausible claim that CMS intentionally discriminated against Ms. Jones on the basis of her race by asking her to cut her dreadlocks pursuant to its race-neutral grooming policy. The EEOC's allegations—individually or collectively—do not suggest that CMS used that policy as proxy for intentional racial discrimination.​

There is much you say that I do not disagree with (though I have to say I don't watch fashion shows so the references to that escape me). I understand your point about "colorblind" comments and the perspective from people of "privilege." Like Kevin said, I try and be as unbiased and conscious of any racism that I have had bred into me by being 57 years old. I also agree with his assertion that the "younger generations are less prone to see race (gender, religion sexual preference etc) as an issue", at least I hope that is the case. I also believe that any comments made on the podcast were meant to reflect this belief. I don't think any of the podcasters said or implied that we now live in a utopian society where race no longer is a concern.
 

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