Defunding The Police

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First of all, in the dozens of posts on this subject, I don't think one single person has said they thought the police handled this properly.

Second, only one (very large) person was arrested, but there were three people in the car. Three is more than two, so another two-man unit responded as a backup.

There is nothing wrong with the number of officers. What they did was wrong.

The problem isn't just those officers, though. It is the whole institutional culture of policing.

Read the things the MPD union chief has said and tell me if you think real reforms, along the lines of 8 Can't Wait, are possible with him sitting at the negotiating table.

Look at the mass resignations in Buffalo; two cops were disciplined for using excessive force and their entire unit resigned from emergency response duty in protest not of the violence against an elderly protester but of the consequences the officers are facing. If they're resigning over not being allowed to conduct themselves without consequence or restraint, how likely are they to accept reforms aimed at creating a less-aggressive model of policing?

Look at the suburban police chief in the Detroit area, who is currently suspended (with pay) and has his officers rallying around him to oppose firing after he made comments about "body bags for these vicious subhumans" and calling on leaders to "unleash real cops to take care of these barbarians" in response to news coverage about the mostly peaceful Detroit-area protests. With a leader like that, do you think community-oriented policing and non-violence training is going to happen?

And then you have departments like that one in FL that is Tweeting an invitation for officers upset by disciplinary actions and reform efforts to come apply at their department, where none of those things will be happening. They're basically using the promise of no oversight as a recruiting tool.

I don't know that I agree with the defund/dismantle approach, but I do think the evidence points to us being in a situation where incremental reform simply isn't possible in light of the currently ingrained culture in many of our law enforcement departments.
 
I agree. We have a number of officers in our family and friends circle. One retired, the others still active. All are good cops, and most that they know and work with are as well.

I truly understand the issues different sides have in this, but I really wonder if anyone complaining about the way things are handled in certain situations have every been in those situations. These people are human. They have families, wives and children. They need to make split second life or death decisions. I am not saying they should have free reign to do what they want and how forcefully they want, but I really hope we don't put them in a position of harm either. Just imagine being a cop and having to worry about being sued, fired or worse for defending your own life or that of those around you.
I think most people do understand that. The problem is, in what has come to light (over and over and over again), is that there are police officers making horrible, deadly decisions in situations that aren’t split second or life & death. 8 mins and 46 seconds, 3 of which the detainee was unconscious, is not split second, nor life & death. Busting in on a no knock warrant and randomly firing (yes I know they were shot at - understandably when one thinks their house is being broken into) didn’t have to be a split second decision. Knocking on the door and announcing themselves as police could have changed the entire thing. Something that now, at least temporarily, is required.

So then becomes the process of weeding out the bad from the good. And that becomes harder when the good won’t stop the bad, effectively making them all bad. Just look at the amount of excessive force used during the protests, when they knew eyes were on them!

This is not meant to disparage your family members because I don’t know them, but I’m sure everyone says the police officers they know are good guys. Except some obviously aren’t.
 
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I am curious about this.

If one has been in law enforcement for decades, and they don't agree with what is happening within law enforcement now, why would they retire? Why wouldn't they attempt to be a part of the solution?

And if they are retiring because they aren't happy that law enforcement is finally being held to a higher standard, why would we be upset they are retiring?
Devil's advocate: I'm guessing they expect the decisions to be handed to them instead of being allowed to be involved as too many view the Police force as deeply flawed. I wouldn't want a bunch of politicians that have never been in my shoes to tell me how to do my job after decades of doing it.
 
It means they want to rebuild the public safety system from the ground up, including reforms and programs that police unions would never consent to (which is why the need to defund/dismantle - right now, even modest reforms and common sense ideas like "police don't need tanks" are fiercely opposed by the unions). Most of the visions for what replaces existing police forces are pretty similar to the kind of approaches that are common in smaller communities, actually, with police serving primarily as public service rather than as a heavy hand of enforcement and agreements with outside agencies (county sheriffs or state police) to assist with situations that the community resources cannot handle internally.

Who would apply? This sounds simple, but it’s not. Have you seen the movie Police Academy: Citizens on Patrol? Is that what you want?
 
Devil's advocate: I'm guessing they expect the decisions to be handed to them instead of being allowed to be involved as too many view the Police force as deeply flawed. I wouldn't want a bunch of politicians that have never been in my shoes to tell me how to do my job after decades of doing it.

Any one person has the possibility to make a difference in situations like this. Also, if you recognize that there is corruption or misuse of power all around you, standing by makes you complicit. If you aren't open to the means of reform because someone who hasn't walked in your shoes has some say, then you aren't really open to it, because how else is it going to get done?
 
Who would apply? This sounds simple, but it’s not. Have you seen the movie Police Academy: Citizens on Patrol? Is that what you want?

I've actually never seen a Police Academy movie (though I'm aware enough of the franchise to get that you're basically suggesting our only choices are the current approach or a bunch of bumbling idiots) but I suspect the outcome would be a mix of current officers who are more comfortable with a community-based approach than with a militarized one and social workers and other veterans of community organizations who would leap at the chance to move their work to a more permanent and stable (compared to fundraiser or grant supported) model. There are plenty of cops that don't agree with the current approach - my local PD has built a system on recruiting them with the "selling point" of non-violent, community-based policing - who would likely appreciate an opportunity to work more closely with, rather than against, their communities.
 
Devil's advocate: I'm guessing they expect the decisions to be handed to them instead of being allowed to be involved as too many view the Police force as deeply flawed. I wouldn't want a bunch of politicians that have never been in my shoes to tell me how to do my job after decades of doing it.


more so-they are dedicated to serving the public and have lived through 'restructuring/reforms/re-imaginings' before where their time was redirected to sitting on committee after committee, getting piles of survey paperwork-all taking their time away from serving the needs of their communities. a friend who is a decades long high school counselor in a volatile/high needs district just experienced this with the covid closures-the time he could have spent on the phone/computer/doing outreach to his largely at risk seniors wasn't allowed b/c his district was so focused on putting everything on paper with just the right wording and requiring meeting after meeting after meeting. he saw so many he could have helped fall though what had been cracks but became gaping holes. he tendered his retirement and will seek volunteer opportunities to continue to provide actual service to his community.
 
I am curious about this.

If one has been in law enforcement for decades, and they don't agree with what is happening within law enforcement now, why would they retire? Why wouldn't they attempt to be a part of the solution?

And if they are retiring because they aren't happy that law enforcement is finally being held to a higher standard, why would we be upset they are retiring?

Another reason why some police officers retire is they get burned out. I have a friend who worked 30 years as a police officer. He retired last year because he was tired and burned out. The city he works in has reduced funding for the police department every year for the past approximately 10 years. The number of police officers available to patrol the streets has gradually decreased in that time frame.

What's been the impact of this locally? Well, when your home gets broken into, the police no longer will even come to your home to take a report, gather fingerprints & evidence, etc. You're told to go to the police department in person to file a report. If you call 911 and your life is in danger, the length of time it takes for the police to come to your aid is MUCH longer than before.

At the same time, the police needs of the community have not decreased. Child abuse, domestic violence, etc. All of that has continued with real safety needs on the part of everyday residents all across the city.

If an officer is in trouble, been shot, needs assistance from other officers...it takes longer for them to come to the officer's aid. My friend has personally talked several people out of killing themselves...sometimes it took HOURS to do it and he was the ONLY officer available to assist the person in need...and local mental health services were stripped of funding, so there was no crisis mental health team available to come and assist.

My friend said that he retired because he was burned out and tired of getting threatened and being afraid every day of getting shot and killed.
 
Just to put a more realistic focus on one of the more controversial examples, the Mayor of LA announced he would be cutting $250 million from the LAPD budget fund local low-income projects. Sounds really extreme, right? Well, no. Those were cuts to a projected INCREASE in the LAPD budget. The LAPD budget is still higher than 2019. I am leary of where the money is going but only because it's LA and they have a bad track record for things like this.

That said...
I have no idea where we would have been without the LBPD when the looters and arsonists came to Long Beach. We needed those guys BIG TIME, and they came through as best they could. The devastation was pretty bad downtown - but it could have been so much worse.

Edit to add;
One of the most incredible things that happened during the riots in Long Beach was barely even reported. I live on the other side of town and "broke curfew" about 8:30p to walk my dog (super quiet on this side of town - THANK YOU LBPD!). While I was out, we heard more sirens than I have ever heard coming from downtown. We found out later this was the police forces from the other South Bay cities (Redondo, Manhattan, Hermosa, etc.) all coming en masse, code 3, sirens and lights in a convoy. They weren't having problems in those cities so the cities all sent their police to help us here. How amazing is that?
 
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Another reason why some police officers retire is they get burned out. I have a friend who worked 30 years as a police officer. He retired last year because he was tired and burned out. The city he works in has reduced funding for the police department every year for the past approximately 10 years. The number of police officers available to patrol the streets has gradually decreased in that time frame.

What's been the impact of this locally? Well, when your home gets broken into, the police no longer will even come to your home to take a report, gather fingerprints & evidence, etc. You're told to go to the police department in person to file a report. If you call 911 and your life is in danger, the length of time it takes for the police to come to your aid is MUCH longer than before.

At the same time, the police needs of the community have not decreased. Child abuse, domestic violence, etc. All of that has continued with real safety needs on the part of everyday residents all across the city.

If an officer is in trouble, been shot, needs assistance from other officers...it takes longer for them to come to the officer's aid. My friend has personally talked several people out of killing themselves...sometimes it took HOURS to do it and he was the ONLY officer available to assist the person in need...and local mental health services were stripped of funding, so there was no crisis mental health team available to come and assist.

My friend said that he retired because he was burned out and tired of getting threatened and being afraid every day of getting shot and killed.

I'd prefer burnt out officers retire, honestly.

And as I mentioned in my original post, I don't believe that quite a few of these specifics you mention should be something that the police handle. So if funds go toward having more qualified people dealing with mental health issues, I don't see how that is a bad thing. Of course, that would also have to happen as well.

I guess my thing is that a lot of the disdain police officers face at this point in time is at least partially due to the way they represent themselves in times when all eyes are on them. They have controlled the narrative for a long time, and they've shown how they want to handle it. I truly do not want to lose the "good cops," and the people who's hearts are in the right place. I do feel for the good people who want to genuinely serve their community. But they are part of a broken system that continues to make their own bed. I am not sure how navigating the way out of this happens without a bigger, ground up approach.
 
Just to put a more realistic focus on one of the more controversial examples, the Mayor of LA announced he would be cutting $250 million from the LAPD budget fund local low-income projects. Sounds really extreme, right? Well, no. Those were cuts to a projected INCREASE in the LAPD budget. The LAPD budget is still higher than 2019. I am leary of where the money is going but only because it's LA and they have a bad track record for things like this.

That said...
I have no idea where we would have been without the LBPD when the looters and arsonists came to Long Beach. We needed those guys BIG TIME, and they came through as best they could. The devastation was pretty bad downtown - but it could have been so much worse.

Where I grew up the gangs had assault rifles. I don’t know why as a cop you wouldn’t want equal force. It’s not like criminals obey the law.

This push is going to result in more crime in poor areas. It’s going to be open season on the natives. But you’ll have less police brutality because you’ll have fewer police.
 
I'd prefer burnt out officers retire, honestly.

And as I mentioned in my original post, I don't believe that quite a few of these specifics you mention should be something that the police handle. So if funds go toward having more qualified people dealing with mental health issues, I don't see how that is a bad thing. Of course, that would also have to happen as well.

I guess my thing is that a lot of the disdain police officers face at this point in time is at least partially due to the way they represent themselves in times when all eyes are on them. They have controlled the narrative for a long time, and they've shown how they want to handle it. I truly do not want to lose the "good cops," and the people who's hearts are in the right place. I do feel for the good people who want to genuinely serve their community. But they are part of a broken system that continues to make their own bed. I am not sure how navigating the way out of this happens without a bigger, ground up approach.

Well, in the case of the city where my cop friend used to work, the city reduced funding to the police department AND reduced mental health services funding. It's been a mess there for a long time since they did so.

One thing's for sure, it's a royal mess in many areas.
 
Another reason why some police officers retire is they get burned out. I have a friend who worked 30 years as a police officer. He retired last year because he was tired and burned out. The city he works in has reduced funding for the police department every year for the past approximately 10 years. The number of police officers available to patrol the streets has gradually decreased in that time frame.

What's been the impact of this locally? Well, when your home gets broken into, the police no longer will even come to your home to take a report, gather fingerprints & evidence, etc. You're told to go to the police department in person to file a report. If you call 911 and your life is in danger, the length of time it takes for the police to come to your aid is MUCH longer than before.

At the same time, the police needs of the community have not decreased. Child abuse, domestic violence, etc. All of that has continued with real safety needs on the part of everyday residents all across the city.

If an officer is in trouble, been shot, needs assistance from other officers...it takes longer for them to come to the officer's aid. My friend has personally talked several people out of killing themselves...sometimes it took HOURS to do it and he was the ONLY officer available to assist the person in need...and local mental health services were stripped of funding, so there was no crisis mental health team available to come and assist.

My friend said that he retired because he was burned out and tired of getting threatened and being afraid every day of getting shot and killed.
Something we don't hear a lot about:

https://www.addictioncenter.com/news/2019/09/police-at-highest-risk-for-suicide-than-any-profession/
 
The problem isn't just those officers, though. It is the whole institutional culture of policing.

Read the things the MPD union chief has said and tell me if you think real reforms, along the lines of 8 Can't Wait, are possible with him sitting at the negotiating table.
I don't pay much attention to union leaders because they say a lot of stuff that is not representative of the vast majority of the officers they represent.

But the bigger problem with Minneapolis is they have had these problems for years and years, and none of their politicians have done a thing about it. Now they want to eliminate the department.

Why didn't they do ANYTHING before George Floyd was needlessly killed? They could have prevented it if they had taken some action.

Look at the mass resignations in Buffalo; two cops were disciplined for using excessive force and their entire unit resigned from emergency response duty in protest not of the violence against an elderly protester but of the consequences the officers are facing. If they're resigning over not being allowed to conduct themselves without consequence or restraint, how likely are they to accept reforms aimed at creating a less-aggressive model of policing?
Buffalo is a special case, and I don't know anything about their police department.

I don't think the officer should have shoved the old man, but you have to look at the context.

A line of police officers, under orders from their deputy superintendent, was advancing to clear some demonstrators from an area. Right behind the front line were two important officers -- both supervisors.

The closest one was in charge of the line and should have ordered the confrontational gentleman arrested. He did nothing.

Just behind him, if you look at the video, is another supervisor broadcasting orders to clear the area with a white electronic megaphone.

Instead of obeying the lawful orders of the police, the elderly gentleman confronted the officers so closely that he was shoved back. That shove proved to be injurious, but that tactic IS what officers are trained to do in that situation. Unfortunately, it turned out badly this time -- and as I said earlier the better approach would have been to just grab the man and handcuff him and take him to jail. Hopefully, the man will survive.

I don't agree with the officers "resigning" from their unit -- in fact, I'm not even sure how one does that.

But I do understand it. They resigned because, in their view, the officer who did the shoving did nothing more than he had been trained to do -- and for that he got fired and charged criminally.

Look at the suburban police chief in the Detroit area, who is currently suspended (with pay) and has his officers rallying around him to oppose firing after he made comments about "body bags for these vicious subhumans" and calling on leaders to "unleash real cops to take care of these barbarians" in response to news coverage about the mostly peaceful Detroit-area protests. With a leader like that, do you think community-oriented policing and non-violence training is going to happen?
Not familiar with that situation, but if he really made those comments he's a total moron and should be fired.

And then you have departments like that one in FL that is Tweeting an invitation for officers upset by disciplinary actions and reform efforts to come apply at their department, where none of those things will be happening. They're basically using the promise of no oversight as a recruiting tool.
No, they're recruiting. They are actually IN police work and they know that the overwhelming majority of officers in those departments are good cops. They also know that they can weed out potential problems by psych tests (required in Florida), thorough background investigations, and other screening tools. They see a target-rich environment with a pool of good cops and they're going to exploit it. Good on 'em.

I don't know that I agree with the defund/dismantle approach, but I do think the evidence points to us being in a situation where incremental reform simply isn't possible in light of the currently ingrained culture in many of our law enforcement departments.
Minneapolis doesn't know that. Minneapolis city government has made NO EFFORT to reform anything.
 
I don't pay much attention to union leaders because they say a lot of stuff that is not representative of the vast majority of the officers they represent.

But the bigger problem with Minneapolis is they have had these problems for years and years, and none of their politicians have done a thing about it. Now they want to eliminate the department.

Why didn't they do ANYTHING before George Floyd was needlessly killed? They could have prevented it if they had taken some action.

Buffalo is a special case, and I don't know anything about their police department.

I don't think the officer should have shoved the old man, but you have to look at the context.

A line of police officers, under orders from their deputy superintendent, was advancing to clear some demonstrators from an area. Right behind the front line were two important officers -- both supervisors.

The closest one was in charge of the line and should have ordered the confrontational gentleman arrested. He did nothing.

Just behind him, if you look at the video, is another supervisor broadcasting orders to clear the area with a white electronic megaphone.

Instead of obeying the lawful orders of the police, the elderly gentleman confronted the officers so closely that he was shoved back. That shove proved to be injurious, but that tactic IS what officers are trained to do in that situation. Unfortunately, it turned out badly this time -- and as I said earlier the better approach would have been to just grab the man and handcuff him and take him to jail. Hopefully, the man will survive.

I don't agree with the officers "resigning" from their unit -- in fact, I'm not even sure how one does that.

But I do understand it. They resigned because, in their view, the officer who did the shoving did nothing more than he had been trained to do -- and for that he got fired and charged criminally.

Not familiar with that situation, but if he really made those comments he's a total moron and should be fired.

No, they're recruiting. They are actually IN police work and they know that the overwhelming majority of officers in those departments are good cops. They also know that they can weed out potential problems by psych tests (required in Florida), thorough background investigations, and other screening tools. They see a target-rich environment with a pool of good cops and they're going to exploit it. Good on 'em.

Minneapolis doesn't know that. Minneapolis city government has made NO EFFORT to reform anything.

I just want to respond to one comment that shoving people is what the police are trained to do. Videos showing the police pushing and shoving peaceful protesters all over the country are shocking and outraging many. That right there is a violent force tactic and not de-escalation. The police should not get to shove people, especially so hard that they fall over for simply standing there. If he’s under arrest one of the dozens of officers tell him to turn around- he’s a 70+ unarmed man standing on a sidewalk and no ones life is a stake. Thats what I’m done with- if your trained response is to shove people, your training and tactics are wrong.

Oddly, when people with automatic weapons were stomping around a state capital and screaming in officers faces no one was pushed or shoved.
 

I do know firsthand that PDs do not offer the necessary support for officers who have been first responders to trauma. I know specifically of someone who was a first responder to a national level event and I don't really know how anyone can work after that without very specialized resources. Those resources should be readily available to all officers, as an included benefit of their employment, but they are not. There is something here about the toxicity of "be strong, be a man, handle it" that seems to be present in a lot of power structures like law enforcement. Perhaps all would be better off if all officers were sufficiently cared for after experiencing their own traumas?
 
I live in MN but not in Minneapolis proper (in first ring suburb). There is an underlying elephant in the room that I have not seen looked at yet.

Whether people want to believe it or not there is a governmental component to this.
Minneapolis has had the same type of government since 1945 with a few others in there for a few years, but never more than 1 term.
The current mayor and city council reflect that too.
That they were elected by the citizens of Minneapolis knowing these issues were ongoing. It has been pretty bad for quite awhile, called murderapolis in the 90's.

BLM has been very active here because of several police shootings. During the last political campaign BLM was a prevalent topic with several candidates but not overall with the Mayor and City Council that were elected. Once elected nothing was done.

The irony of the current situation does not escape us. The citizens of Minneapolis were lied to on a very high level but have been for many years yet the same type government was re-elected. No blame here to any of the citizens; we thought new blood and new individuals elected would bring reform. Citizens are trusting here.

The 'defunding and disbanding' of the police department coming from this city council are the same city council that have done nothing to address the issues. They have backed and supported the police department behaviors and policies that have been going on for many years, 'good old boys club', knowing what the issues are.
Lots of sensationalism but no progress; it shows the lack of looking at the BIG picture, lack of critical thinking skills, poor leadership skills and no accountability.

The mayor is inexperienced and it is very apparent has no management and/or leadership skills. The city has gone down hill since his election. Many people are moving out of the city because of the rules and ordinances put into place which is leading to a poor economic situation.

We do have great bike paths though...……:eek:

The majority of the LE in MN are fantastic, and many are on the Minneapolis police force. They are victims of circumstance in this situation too.

Another thing, don't believe everything bad thing you read about Minneapolis/MN in the national press.

IMO about 75% has fact errors, statements used that are taken out of context, hyperboles and mostly sensationalistic. I guess this is what the media is now.

Stay safe everyone!
 
I find it amusing that so many people on this thread just ignore the Camden story posted earlier. Like it or not, ignoring this as a path forward already shows you've got your ears closed.

So I'd like to hear from those alarmed at the prospect of 'defunding the police' on how and why the Camden example is an indicator of your attitude.

The next thing that amuses me is the typical "the politicians haven't done anything" response..... said in the face of the politicians actually trying to do something.
 
I just want to respond to one comment that shoving people is what the police are trained to do. Videos showing the police pushing and shoving peaceful protesters all over the country are shocking and outraging many.
The gentleman was part of an unlawful assembly. He not only refused to obey the lawful command to leave the area, he moved into the police line and confronted the officers. The line was moving, he was in the way, and would not move. So he got shoved.

That is not "violent force," that is minimal force being used against a person involved in illegal activity to try to get him to comply. Most of the time that tactic works, resulting in no injury to anyone and no arrests.

In this case, the man stumbled backwards 4-5 steps (20 feet or so) before losing his balance and falling. As I said above, I would have just arrested him and been done with him. But the shove was certainly not a violation of department policy, or normal practice, or anything else. It just ended badly.

Don't want to be shoved? When Officer Friendly makes an announcement that you are involved in an unlawful assembly and need to leave the area or be arrested -- obey that lawful order.

Don't act like a fool and then complain later about the outcome. Just obey the law.

Oddly, when people with automatic weapons were stomping around a state capital and screaming in officers faces no one was pushed or shoved.
Obviously, totally different situation -- different city, different police, etc.

Those yahoos were also demonstrating lawfully -- as dumb as they looked. It is not illegal to look stupid.

If authorities had declared that demonstration unlawful, and the yahoos did not disburse, they would have been arrested. But they obeyed the law.
 
I find it amusing that so many people on this thread just ignore the Camden story posted earlier. Like it or not, ignoring this as a path forward already shows you've got your ears closed.
Camden doubled the size of its police force. The move to disband the existing force was a union busting tactic.
The transformation began after the 2012 homicide spike. The department wanted to put more officers on patrol but couldn’t afford to hire more, partly because of generous union contracts. So in 2013, the mayor and city council dissolved the local PD and signed an agreement for the county to provide shared services. The new county force is double the size of the old one, and officers almost exclusively patrol the city. (They were initially nonunion but have since unionized.) Increasing the head count was a trust-building tactic, says Thomson, who served as chief throughout the transition: Daily, noncrisis interactions between residents and cops went up. Police also got de-escalation training and body cameras, and more cameras and devices to detect gunfire were installed around the city.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...den-new-jersey-reformed-its-police-department
 
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