Disney Camper Advance Edit Mode/Loop Renovations

[Gatordad]

I really believe that FW is an after thought for Disney. It's not a big profit center for them - it's just something they feel they need for some odd reason. They will never sink a lot into it no matter what happens.

I think you are wrong. I think they make plenty on FW, and as long as the disney marks keep showing up with their campers and credit cards, they don't need to make any improvements.

 

[bigdisneydaddy]

I think you are wrong. I think they make plenty on FW, and as long as the disney marks keep showing up with their campers and credit cards, they don't need to make any improvements.

Considering the fact that they have spent very little on capital improvements at FW and the fact that it has been in business for so long I would think they have made truckloads of money on it. The pool is one of the most modest on Disney property and has a lower number of required lifeguards than the others. They have no laundry to deal with since they dont supply towels. The campfire program probably pays for itself off of the chuckwagon receipts. The golfcart rental is a goldmine. Other than the busses and the utilities I dont see a lot of real expense.

 

[ntsammy5]

What do you think their ROE is at FW? I bet it's lower than any other resort at WDW because FW just just doesn't have the numbers - not many people buy food there, quite a few don't buy length of stay tickets, they don't do the dining plan and most aren't tied to Disney like they are at the resorts. Take the cabins and Hoop De Doo out and it gets even lower.

The reason they've gotten away with no capital improvements at the Fort is because they just don't care!

 

[Gatordad]

What do you think their ROE is at FW? I bet it's lower than any other resort at WDW because FW just just doesn't have the numbers - not many people buy food there, quite a few don't buy length of stay tickets, they don't do the dining plan and most aren't tied to Disney like they are at the resorts. Take the cabins and Hoop De Doo out and it gets even lower.

The reason they've gotten away with no capital improvements at the Fort is because they just don't care!

I think it's very high because most of the capital expense there is from 1971ish.... Once you pour the pad and run the electric, there is no further investment. True, the people aren't tied to Disney, but the amount of revenue they do bring in is a very high profit. It's not like they are paying a mortgage on a building for the campsites. The cart rentals alone could probably pay most of the nut for the place. I'm sure the "cost" of having a site occupied is less than $10/day.


I agree they don't care. And with the campers and credit cards coming, they don't have to.

 

[ntsammy5]

You may be right, and I don't argue with the expense side - it's the revenue that FW can't match.

 

[RvUsa]

Think about the carts, it amazes me when I do, they get a cart for probably around $3750. Divide that by $50 a day rental, and that gets you a paid for cart in 75 days of rental, so lets assume they are only rented 50% of the time, that means that the cart is paid for in 150 days. Now we know that they lease the carts so they probably turn them back in every 2 years and get at least lets say 1/3 of purchase price back.... so they only "pay" $2250 for the cart and rent it 360 days of the 2 years, and we know it is probably a lot more than that.... that equals $18000 minus the $2250 for the cart, that equals lets say $14000 with the electric subtracted times the number of carts , what 350 Thats $490000 for 2 yrs, I would say that pays for the 3 people who work there.... LOL

 

[Gatordad]

I disagree on the cart assumption. They must purchase them, because there are plenty of pre-2000 carts at the Fort..... either way, I only want their cart revenue for one day, and I'd be happy.

 

[terri01p]

I also think they buy the carts and just replace the batteries as needed and let people run them into the ground and they buy new carts every now and again.

 

[bigdisneydaddy]

I also think they buy the carts and just replace the batteries as needed and let people run them into the ground and they buy new carts every now and again.

They never have replaced all of the carts at once. Some are quite old.
I suspect that Disney has a division that buys the carts and then leases them to the campground etc etc, thus never really showing the huge profit that they make from the rental, not that profit is a bad thing, its just most likely buried somewhere in the accounting.

AL, I agree with what you say about the volume of money generated by FW, I think that the percentage of profit is most likely the highest on property. While FW may not make as much, they make more compared to the minimal investment.

 

[terri01p]

Don't get my post wrong what I mean to say is it would make more sense if they bought the golf carts and just replaced the battiers instead of the whole cart and I know that they get new carts in every now and again. They would have made more money by buying the carts.

 

[2goofycampers]

The Fort $ also includes the cabins and at $250.00 a nite they bring in a $ or $$. Capacity also may play a part in Fort profit, apparently they stay full, you can almost always get a ressie at the resorts on first call.

 

[bigdisneydaddy]

Don't get my post wrong what I mean to say is it would make more sense if they bought the golf carts and just replaced the battiers instead of the whole cart and I know that they get new carts in every now and again. They would have made more money by buying the carts.

If they manage the carts like any other fleet is managed they are replaced using several criteria, age, service history, trade in value, price of new etc etc. I am sure that some of the carts require much more than the occasional battery, the suspension, brakes and bodies are all susceptible to abuse. Most people dont adequately maintain their personal vehicles and I am sure that rentals get abused to a much higher degree than personally owned carts.

 

[bigdisneydaddy]

The Fort $ also includes the cabins and at $250.00 a nite they bring in a $ or $$. Capacity also may play a part in Fort profit, apparently they stay full, you can almost always get a ressie at the resorts on first call.

I was looking at it strictly from a campsite perspective but your point is well made.

 

[des1954]

Okay....

1) Ft.W was NOT an afterthought of WDW. It was actually part of Walt's original plan. He wanted somewhere people could get back to nature, yet still experience the "Disney Magic". It opened the same year as the Poly & Contemporary. The Golf Resort was behind by a few months.

2) The original sites were not concrete pads, they were all that lovely coquina shell we have all come to enjoy taking home with us after each trip. (LOL)

3) The original name was Fort Wilderness Campground - NOT - Fort Wilderness Resort and Campground. The resort part came into play when the original cabins were installed.

4) The golf carts that they rent out are leased directly thru Club Car. The only ones Disney owns and re-sells thru property control, are the ones used by the CM's. However....if a guest "trashes" a golf cart (as I have seen numerous guests do - including a teenager driving one into the little lake by Meadow Pool - on purpose), WDW is responsible for the damage. I own my own cart, and I side with FtW management on the cost of renting one out. I wouldn't rent my "ride" to a stranger for less than $50/day.

5) Disney Corp has made a killing on FtW. For an investment much less than a hotel, and upkeep much less than a hotel (I'm not including the cabins here - just the campsites)... oh yeah... they're making $$$ by the bucket full. That being said, however... there were many, many years FtW sat half-empty year round, so initially they were slow in getting a return on the investment. It wasn't until after 9/11 that FtW has been virtually impossible to get ressies for. Before then you could drive up to the check-in gate any time including holiday weekends and just about tell them what site you'd like to be in. There were many years in the 70's thru early 90's that they would stick a note on your trailer/tent/RV asking if you would like to extend your stay and to call the front desk to do so.

When we first started camping at FtW in 1974, a campsite was $8.00/nite. There were no preferred sites - it was all the same rate. Now, in 1974 $8.00/nite was half a day's pay for me.

I tend to think that with the economy being in the toilet & recovery not expected until late 2009, WDW as a whole is going to be impacted. It will probably show first at FtW due to people not wanting to pay for the gas it takes to haul their RV/TT. Percentage wise, the people on this board represents a wee fraction of the total number of FtW guests. Look how many of us have changed our vacation plans this year? Little by little, it will (and probably is) hitting the other resorts.

I honestly think if FtW management is smart, they will delay some "renovations" until they see how the economy is going to affect them. They still need to upgrade the pool, but the rest (other than normal maintenance) could go on hold.

 

[terri01p]

Now that's interesting

 

[RvUsa]

I agree that they are leased, there have never been any FTW carts at property control, but tons of other carts from all over WDW. That is what made me assume they are leased, just like the majority of golf courses. I was just using numbers on the very conservative side just to prove my point, they make money with them LOL. If they operate like many golf courses around here, they are leased and rotate them out to new every year, never replacing the whole "fleet" at once. Most courses around here lease for 3 or 4 years, and replace a certain percentage every year....

 

[des1954]

they are leased and rotate them out to new every year, never replacing the whole "fleet" at once. Most courses around here lease for 3 or 4 years, and replace a certain percentage every year....

 

[Gatordad]

well there's quite a few that are 8 years old.

 

[2goofycampers]

Did they turn camping loops into cabin loops or did they build new loops for the cabins?

 

[des1954]

well there's quite a few that are 8 years old.

I plead ignorance on this one, Pete. I don't know how to tell how old a cart is just by looking at it. Rick once asked someone at the bike barn if FtW owned their carts and he said "no", that it was a lease agreement directly with Club Car. That was a few years ago, so maybe it's changed. I don't see why it would have, cause you can write off a lease, but can only do so much write off with depreciation.