DVC point balancing 2022 vs 2021

[EYL]

Just a thought, but should this be covered after DVC revises the point charts? I mean, Disney is not one to admit to mistakes publicly, as we all know. To highlight it now may cause them to revert to their original path of "we did no wrong"...?

 

[Jecca]

Just a thought, but should this be covered after DVC revises the point charts? I mean, Disney is not one to admit to mistakes publicly, as we all know. To highlight it now may cause them to revert to their original path of "we did no wrong"...?

I kind of think the opposite. Call them out now so that they follow through with their promise to fix it. It’s easier to sweep under the rug when it’s not made public.

 

[Aussie RJ]

Thanks to the group on here who continually put the best interests of the membership forward. This issue generally seems lesser known than the 2020 debacle, but in the end just as critical considering future charts and adjustments.

Now without making this personal, there are certain employment positions I see as untenable considering the best interests of the members. We have now been let down 2 out of 3 years, among other issues, it’s simply not good enough.

 

[bobbiwoz]

When the Disney Files article about the point chart changes came out, they explained they tried to balance the out fall and summer. They made fall a bit higher point wise and summer points were eased a bit.

The article did not address the problem we have with the 2022 point charts. They raised the points requirement beyond the number of points sold for each resort.

If they do come out with new charts, and if they have stated the adjustments will involve the later parts of 2022, won’t that once again bring down the number of points in fall/December?

 

[JGINPL]

Alright - I'm caught up!

First off - To everyone who has done so much research and digging into this topic, thank you! Some of the things here are just mind-blowing and amazing.

We will cover this on The DVC Show and in an article on DVC Fan this week and put some legs behind it. I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the facts (and 7 pages of notes I've compiled).

My question to everyone here is: What would you like to be shared with the masses of DVC Members out there? What do you think is most important for them to hear regarding this?

I would like to highlight members voices are heard when they contact membership on these issues. This has been 2 walk backs of point charts in 3 years from members doing the work and looking into the changes.

 

[Louis morrell]

I would like to highlight members voices are heard when they contact membership on these issues. This has been 2 walk backs of point charts in 3 years from members doing the work and looking into the changes.

I agree. That would also allow a somewhat positive spin for Disney in that they are responsive to member concerns. A little bit of sugar to help the medicine go down if you will.

 

[New Mouse]

Alright - I'm caught up!

First off - To everyone who has done so much research and digging into this topic, thank you! Some of the things here are just mind-blowing and amazing.

We will cover this on The DVC Show and in an article on DVC Fan this week and put some legs behind it. I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the facts (and 7 pages of notes I've compiled).

My question to everyone here is: What would you like to be shared with the masses of DVC Members out there? What do you think is most important for them to hear regarding this?

I think its important to know, but a tough pill for Disney fans to swallow... at the end of the day, Disney is a corporation and the executives are there to serve wall street and the bottom line as the #1 priority, with their own personal self interest and promotion in mind being #1a.

Thats not to say the fans dont matter, but at the end of the day, they are not currently #1, which they should demand.

What does that mean? Most decisions are made with the bottom line in mind, not the consumer, so dont be afraid to question, complain and demand action.

 

[Sandisw]

When the Disney Files article about the point chart changes came out, they explained they tried to balance the out fall and summer. They made fall a bit higher point wise and summer points were eased a bit.

The article did not address the problem we have with the 2022 point charts. They raised the points requirement beyond the number of points sold for each resort.

If they do come out with new charts, and if they have stated the adjustments will involve the later parts of 2022, won’t that once again bring down the number of points in fall/December?

My guess is summer will come down further and that mid May until September will now be all one travel period.

ETA. I wonder if they will remove Easter as a premium week and cluster all dates from early to late around that to the same season so it no longer can impact the charts moving forward.

 

[JOLT]

I really want to give a thank you to @i<3riviera. I asked him a few questions and he was able to whip up some charts that really brought to light to the issues for years to come.

 

[Tiggerette]

Alright - I'm caught up!

First off - To everyone who has done so much research and digging into this topic, thank you! Some of the things here are just mind-blowing and amazing.

We will cover this on The DVC Show and in an article on DVC Fan this week and put some legs behind it. I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the facts (and 7 pages of notes I've compiled).

My question to everyone here is: What would you like to be shared with the masses of DVC Members out there? What do you think is most important for them to hear regarding this?

Thank you very much, Paul. I greatly appreciate your time on this. Before these issues are covered on The DVC Show, I encourage all of the panelists to understand the core issues before speaking on the topic. Being well-informed is going to raise the overall product / show. It is more detrimental to speak with a lack of understanding or use incorrect facts. Equally important, is that the show use visual aids or at least works out the math to demonstrate how the total points required exceeds points sold. I encourage a level-headed, not sensationalist approach. Show the figures first, then if people want to have a heated discussion about motivations or "legality," do so only after the point chart calculations are put forward.

Here's what I would want new and seasoned owners to know from recent point chart conversations:

1) The role of Breakage:
- What is Breakage? How does it work?
- How does DVC benefit from "excess breakage"? (If excess breakage is the amount of funds that is profit and does not go back into management of the properties.)
- How does increasing the total points at any resort contribute to excess breakage?

2) How we got here, Easter Point Bunny Hop:
- How does the focal hinge of Easter affect total points required to stay at each resort?
- In the lifetime of the deed, when (how many years) are the total points required to stay going to exceed what is in the POS? By how much?
- Who primarily benefits from the excess points when they fluctuate from year to year?

3) The role of Increasing Total Points Required as a dilution to ownership:
- How does increasing the points required to stay at the resort contribute to making it easier/harder to reserve at the resort?
- If points are not balanced elsewhere in the same year, how many points do you need to add to your membership to maintain the level of stay you previously enjoyed? What would you have to change to maintain the level of stay?
- If more points are needed overall at your home resort, your ownership is diluted by the percentage difference between the POS and current point requirements. Will that have an effect if you want to sell later/ on the value of the deeded percentage?
- Is there a causal financial figure attached to increasing the total points required at a given resort? If so, who primarily benefits?

 

[JGINPL]

Thank you very much, Paul. I greatly appreciate your time on this. Before these issues are covered on The DVC Show, I encourage all of the panelists to understand the core issues before speaking on the topic. Being well-informed is going to raise the overall product / show. It is more detrimental to speak with a lack of understanding or use incorrect facts. Equally important, is that the show use visual aids or at least works out the math to demonstrate how the total points required exceeds points sold. I encourage a level-headed, not sensationalist approach. Show the figures first, then if people want to have a heated discussion about motivations or "legality," do so only after the point chart calculations are put forward.

Here's what I would want new and seasoned owners to know from recent point chart conversations:

1) The role of Breakage:
- What is Breakage? How does it work?
- How does DVC benefit from "excess breakage"? (If excess breakage is the amount of funds that is profit and does not go back into management of the properties.)
- How does increasing the total points at any resort contribute to excess breakage?

2) How we got here, Easter Point Bunny Hop:
- How does the focal hinge of Easter affect total points required to stay at each resort?
- In the lifetime of the deed, when (how many years) are the total points required to stay going to exceed what is in the POS? By how much?
- Who primarily benefits from the excess points when they fluctuate from year to year?

3) The role of Increasing Total Points Required as a dilution to ownership:
- How does increasing the points required to stay at the resort contribute to making it easier/harder to reserve at the resort?
- If points are not balanced elsewhere in the same year, how many points do you need to add to your membership to maintain the level of stay you previously enjoyed? What would you have to change to maintain the level of stay?
- If more points are needed overall at your home resort, your ownership is diluted by the percentage difference between the POS and current point requirements. Will that have an effect if you want to sell later/ on the value of the deeded percentage?
- Is there a causal financial figure attached to increasing the total points required at a given resort? If so, who primarily benefits?

I agree with your points here when I contact DVC Mgmt, the main thing I focused on was the Breakage and the point increase. Questioning how this benefits owners with increased breakage income going to DVC Mgmt.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

I think its important to know, but a tough pill for Disney fans to swallow... at the end of the day, Disney is a corporation and the executives are there to serve wall street and the bottom line as the #1 priority, with their own personal self interest and promotion in mind being #1a.

Thats not to say the fans dont matter, but at the end of the day, they are not currently #1, which they should demand.

What does that mean? Most decisions are made with the bottom line in mind, not the consumer, so dont be afraid to question, complain and demand action.

Except that we are not just consumers. We are “owners,” and Disney has a contract with us (which they wrote btw!). They are free to act in their own corporate interests, but they are not free to disregard the contract. And fundamental to that contract is currency (point) valuation.

 

[Tiggerette]

At the risk of spamming this thread, there's a related, but separate topic. I didn't initially put it on my top 3 list, cause... well... honestly, it works better as its own conversation/ future show topic. However, I've found it's related to the conversations here, because of the minimization experienced by owners who bring forward items of great concern, such as "they wouldn't because they can't" mindset and "Disney is different, cares about its fans, you must be mistaken" mindset.

DVC Membership vs. Ownership:
- How does DVC create a culture of belonging? How might this impact experience and expectations that come from a point of view having membership in a community*, or ownership in a real estate transaction/ vacation mechanism*?
- How does DVC tell you it's carrying out its fiduciary/ management stewardship? How does DVC tell you it's different than other timeshare models?
- When you are concerned that owner's interests are no longer the primary focus, what are the mechanisms available to you?


*Being a part of community (membership) and holding a regulated timeshare asset (ownership) are not mutually exclusive. I find though that folks who place greater importance on ownership are at the forefront to express concerns about the management of their asset, which thereby become concerns about impact to their vacation community.

 

[Matty B13]

Alright - I'm caught up!

First off - To everyone who has done so much research and digging into this topic, thank you! Some of the things here are just mind-blowing and amazing.

We will cover this on The DVC Show and in an article on DVC Fan this week and put some legs behind it. I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the facts (and 7 pages of notes I've compiled).

My question to everyone here is: What would you like to be shared with the masses of DVC Members out there? What do you think is most important for them to hear regarding this?

One huge issue is that DVC created 2 more seasons that they were not allowed to do, which has completely confused the whole issue and tracking of the point charts. Maybe this was done with the best of intentions, but now that they are walking back the 2022 point charts there seems to be more to it. Why did they created 7 seasons after all these years?????

 

[Sandisw]

One huge issue is that DVC created 2 more seasons that they were not allowed to do, which has completely confused the whole issue and tracking of the point charts. Maybe this was done with the best of intentions, but now that they are walking back the 2022 point charts there seems to be more to it. Why did they created 7 seasons after all these years?????

Just to clarify for any new owner reading, the 2021 charts were the first ones to have 7 seasons.

 

[Minniemoo15]

Alright - I'm caught up!

First off - To everyone who has done so much research and digging into this topic, thank you! Some of the things here are just mind-blowing and amazing.

We will cover this on The DVC Show and in an article on DVC Fan this week and put some legs behind it. I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the facts (and 7 pages of notes I've compiled).

My question to everyone here is: What would you like to be shared with the masses of DVC Members out there? What do you think is most important for them to hear regarding this?

For me - I think it is important for members to hear that just because DVCM says it’s so, doesn’t mean it is. When I brought up my concerns about PVBs 2022 chart back in December , I was told by some other members it was impossible as DVC always lowers nights where they raise it. Even when presented with data that shows otherwise. I was told I didn’t understand the issue, it’s very complex, they have some leeway, etc. Some think the lock off premium is to blame - but my home resort of PVB has no lock off premium to speak off. So the math and trends are fairly simple and glaring at that resort. Thanks to other members who dug into this deeper with much greater knowledge than I had, I finally felt heard and like I wasn’t crazy.

I also want to acknowledge that DVC has been extremely receptive and entertained multiple calls with me. I appreciate this.

Thank you for giving this story traction. I am concerned about how my points will hold their value over time if this precedent is set.

 

[Matty B13]

Just to clarify for any new owner reading, the 2021 charts were the first ones to have 7 seasons.

Yes, after they rescinded the 2020 Points Charts after Members called them out about the increased points in them, and the lock-off premium they created. Makes you really wonder why they decided to add 2 more seasons in 2021.

 

[Bing Showei]

Alright - I'm caught up!

First off - To everyone who has done so much research and digging into this topic, thank you! Some of the things here are just mind-blowing and amazing.

We will cover this on The DVC Show and in an article on DVC Fan this week and put some legs behind it. I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the facts (and 7 pages of notes I've compiled).

My question to everyone here is: What would you like to be shared with the masses of DVC Members out there? What do you think is most important for them to hear regarding this?

I would advise against rushing to do a show or publish any article until you receive a first-hand, official statement from Disney. Everything you are reading on these (mostly) anonymous boards is secondary source information. What you are proposing doing needs to be held to a much higher standard.

Any information shared about what Disney planned to do was accompanied with a request that this information not be shared publicly, and to allow for Disney an opportunity to message the change.

I suspect that message could very easily change as well as the policy they were planning if they lose control of the narrative which is exactly what is happening by virtue of this thread going where it has gone.

If you're going to broadcast this, get your facts straight. Reach out to Yvonne's office. Give Disney an opportunity to make an official statement. This unvetted thread should not be your primary source of information.

 

[mgarbowski]

Many good points above, and I think @Tiggerette has the best summary. Some context I would include from my POV:

• the total effect on points as a percentage of the whole is very small, but still real and important
• the total percentage effect is small even though some individual rooms and dates had major swings because mostly such swings were properly offset, but just not enough [I think this point is well understood here but some who pay loose attention might need it spelt out]
• it is possible the changes were made in a good faith effort for the benefit of the membership to balance demand and handle the temporary overload of points due to the pandemic, but management pushed too far (including the change in number of seasons) and had to be educated why the attempt was not proper

It's also possible the errors were not made in good faith, but I prefer not to assume bad faith until I have clearer evidence than I see here.

 

[MickyLynn]

While I agree that speculation based on other owners' communications and what steps Disney might be taking is shaky ground, I do think we need:
1- A clear demonstration of what exactly these charts changed (total point number).
2- How these changes were made (7 seasons and Easter, I think?).
3- Why that isn't permitted (decreasing the owners' percentages, contract language, do they have the 'leeway' people seem to think they do).
4- Best avenues to appropriately and clearly communicate dissatisfaction about this to Disney, should one be inclined to do so.

I think a better by-the-numbers grasp of the issue would help those less confident in their knowledge to initiate a conversation with management.