Just how much has been lost?

[HBK]

After reading some of the recent threads, combined with the lackluster performance of most of Disney's latest products (Pearl Harbor, Atlantis, DCA, the downturn at AK, the timid response to Dinoland's new Carnival, etc) do you still think the company can get away with providing a less than full performance to the public and have it accepted because of the brand name on the sign?

I think the Brand name helped out Animal Kingdom tremendously. People went (Heck, I was one of em) because it was the newest Disney theme park. I didn't know ANYTHING about the park before I went to it, and I remember standing in front of the tree of life with my dad...and he asked me what I thought of it....I remember saying it was nice, but it seemed like there wasn't much to do. He agreed but said "This is just the start. I bet next time we're here there will be a lot more....

We've been 4 more times and I'll tell you it's exactly the same. On my last trip I swore to myself that I would never goto AK again....I experinced IOA for the first time and it's taken AK's place in my vacation plans.

But remember people poured into Animal Kingdom in the beginning. It didn't suffer the same problems DCA has out of the gate. Only now has attendance slipped.

So I wonder, have people like my father given up waiting for Disney to finish what it started? Have people stopped purchasing Disney's products without looking at the actual product?

I think it's happened in the US....thus the company's focus overseas, where the brand name still has some loyalty.

Anyone else?

P.S. Merry Christmas and happy holidays to my fellow DISers.

 

[Captain Crook]

I don't think anything has been lost that can't be regained. While many may be miffed at the Mouse's recent history, or unimpressed at least, I still think the brand name is respected and head and shoulders above the rest. How long it can stay there without some serious massaging is anyones guess, but for now I still think they're in no serious peril of "losing it".

 

[HBK]

Originally posted by Captain Crook
I don't think anything has been lost that can't be regained. While many may be miffed at the Mouse's recent history, or unimpressed at least, I still think the brand name is respected and head and shoulders above the rest. How long it can stay there without some serious massaging is anyones guess, but for now I still think they're in no serious peril of "losing it".

So the dismal performance of DCA, Atlantis, Pearl Harbor, Dinosaur, Animal Kingdom, et al. is indicitive of a company which the public views as head and shoulders above the competition?

And even if I give that point to you (I'm not), you still seem to feel the company is on the verge of losing the brand loyalty. What massaging do you think is in order?

And lastly, I'm sorry....once brand loyalty is lost, it's generally gone for good.

 

[Bob O]

I think the company has lost alot of the good will that was built by Walt and the beginning of Eisner's tenure. They had a lot of good will/loyalty built up from years of putting out a great product but that was then and now they arent putting out a great product in their new endeavors. And with all the cut backs(which can be debated if they were needed and if so if they were too steep)they have lost more of their good will. And with only 1 new addition in the pipeline(mission space) they have little to build a pr campaign around. I know that i no longer give the company the benefit of the doubt anymore at all. I now have a attitude of show me the beef which wasnt the case several years ago. If they got rid of eisner and brought in a new team i felt had our/the customers thoughts/wishes in mind i may give them the benefit of doubt for a period of time but eisner had the benefit of the doubt from me before,but not now, he squandered it away with his decisions that went way overboard on the profit side and against the consumer side.

 

[Another Voice]

One wonders when about the value of the brand when Disney went out of their way to avoid having ‘Spy Kids’ labeled as a Disney movie even though the film mass aimed exactly at Disney’s target audience. They even went so far as to ban any mention of the film on The Disney Channel and spending all that advertising money on Nickelodeon. That film was a rousing success.

Then Disney spent the most amount of marketing dollars it’s ever spent for a animated film on “Disney’s Atlantis” and plastered the world with Disney’s Atlantis ads, Disney’s Atlantis happy meals, and Disney’s Atlantis toys. And Disney’s film tanked.

And one has to worry when Disney’s latest theme park, Disney’s California Adventure in the middle of Disney’s home turf, next door to Disney’s Disneyland, can not draw Disney’s local audience that’s grown up with a Disney theme park in their backyard, nor can it even interest some of Disney’s most ardent fans, the ones who praise all things Disney, to spend even one day’s worth of Disney Dollars to visit the place.

It’s not like a Disney fan has to go far for a Disney branded product. A local trip to the super market lets me buy Disney ice cream and Disney candy, soon there will be Disney yogurt and Disney bread and Disney cookies and Disney cakes and Disney bottled water and Disney toothpaste and Disney breakfast cereal and Disney fruit drinks and Disney baked pastries and Disney frozen dinners. Not to mention all that Disney product in the Disney sections of JC Penney and the Disney aisles at WalMart and the Disney happy meals at McDonalds.

How can a brand loose value when I see it every time I find junk food, bad movies, and low-quality tee shirts?

 

[All Aboard]

the downturn at AK,

I experinced IOA for the first time and it's taken AK's place in my vacation plans.

We do seem to focus on how well Universal has done with IOA and how poorly Disney has done with AK. But the numbers really don't play that out it seems.

From a story in the Sentinel:

Animal Kingdom attendance fell 7 percent to 7.7 million.

while crowds at Islands of Adventure edged down 8 percent to 5.5 million.

If AK is a HUGE worry for Disney, wouldn't the same be true down the street?

 

[HBK]

Happy Holidays Curling...

Could you please post a link to that story. The only article I found was a long time ago....which said IOA had caught up to AK in attendance. It was before the cut backs, so I don't know.

Are those numbers referring post 911? It seems like 911 hit the rest of Orlando harder than WDW, but my point is the problems pre-911. Attendance has been a problem long before the cutbacks & travel downturns occured.

Once again, happy holiday's Greg
Steve (HBK)

 

[Bob O]

Comparing attendance at IOA and AK is apples and oranges. I would bet that most people who go to AK do so as part of a park hopper them go to another park, without paying a single day admission fee. I would bet from my personal experience that alot more people pay a full days price to IOA. From the lines of people actually buying tickets i saw alot more at IOA than AK and i would never pay $48 to get into AK but would do so for IOA.

 

[KMovies]

Pearl Harbor 198.5 million dollars ... they still took plenty of money to the bank! Everyone expected more ... but it was still a hit.

Atlantis ... 85 million...bomb - yes compared to others like 120 Mulan, 100 mil Hercules, 100 Hunchback ... and even Emperor's New Grove equalled the 85 million. Other companies wish for 85 million.

Spy Kids ... 115 million ... hit. A close second was from Disney. Princess Diaries was a hit for Disney... at 105 million.

Monsters ... 225 and growing...probably to 250+ May not quite equal Shrek's 275 ... but will come closer than anyone ever imagined.

DCA...they'll improve it. It will become a success story! A couple more attractions like Soaring and California Screaming and they will do fine. Never equal Disneyland ... but Epcot, MGM, and AK never equal Magic Kingdom's attendance either.

Give it time and Disney will be hitting the right buttons again!

 

[Bob O]

Pearl Harbor at 185 million is a money loser with the money spent to make the movie and the money spent on marketing the movie.
Atlantis is a money loser at 85 when costs of making movie/marketing is added up.
Monsters is a major hit but not made by disney who may make money now but will lose big when initial contract is up. Disney needs to learn from Pixar and how to make a profitable movie. Lasseter shows creative talents that disney had but now seems to have lost.
DCA major financial flop as well as a creative flop.
Disney at this time shows little life other than TDS which was creeated by outsiders and not in house talent.

 

[space42]

Disney at this time shows little life other than TDS which was creeated by outsiders and not in house talent.

TDS was created by Walt Disney Imagineering but financed by Oriental Land Company.

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[All Aboard]

Bob O, my comparison was not for the gross numbers (although they are interesting) but rather for the year over year variances at each park. From the looks of it, IOA dropped harder than AK did.

With the overseas revenue and DVD/Video sales is it a foregone conclusion that Pearl Harbor was a loser?

HBK, (holiday wishes to you and your family as well - btw delete your pm's) I can't find the so

Can't find the story to link, but here is the whole thing:

Lines Shrink at Big Parks
By Jerry W. Jackson
Sentinel Staff Writer
December 22, 2001

Attendance dropped in the past year at all of the Orlando area’s major theme parks and most big amusement parks in North America, stung by the nation’s first recession in a decade and the Sept.11 terrorist shock to the air travel market.

Crowds at the Magic Kingdom in Walt Disney World slipped 4 percent in 2001, to 14.7 million people, according to the annual survey by Amusement Business magazine.

Other Disney parks saw even stiffer losses, the trade publication estimated, with numbers of visitors plunging 15 percent at Epcot to 9 million and 6 percent at Disney-MGM Studios to 8.3 million. Animal Kingdom attendance fell 7 percent to 7.7 million.

That snapped a six-year string of record attendance at Disney World, the giant Orlando resort comprising four parks, by far the nation’s leading tourist destination.

Disney spokeswoman Rena Callahan said Saturday that while the company does not reveal attendance and will neither confirm nor dispute the magazine’s estimates, signs of the slowdown have been evident for some time.

"Clearly the events of Sept. 11 and the downturn have impacted our business. But we think our overall long-term outlook is strong," Callahan said.

Disney World’s 100 Years of Magic anniversary celebration is boosting traffic to the parks, she said, and "strong" attendance during Thanksgiving weekend "is seen as a good indicator of what the overall holiday season will show."

Other major Central Florida theme parks posted attendance declines for the year as well, according to the annual survey. At Universal Orlando, Universal Studios had 7.2 million visitors, falling 10 percent, while crowds at Islands of Adventure edged down 8 percent to 5.5 million. A Universal spokesperson could not be reached for comment.

SeaWorld Orlando made the best showing among the top 10 parks in North America, with its attendance slipping a modest 2 percent to 5.1 million.

"We had a lot of loyalty programs that really helped," said SeaWorld spokesman Nick Gollattscheck. For the second year, for example, the park offered Florida residents unlimited admission for the remainder of the year with the purchase of a one-day pass.

A Latin music festival and other special events during the year "gave people a reason to come back," Gollattscheck said. "Our strategy is to do those kind of events during the coming year as well."

Florida had seven of the top 10 most popular theme and amusement parks in North America, according to the survey. But many smaller, regional parks in the top 20 fared better during the year and managed to post modest gains.

Tim O’Brien, a senior editor for Amusement Business, said the adage that regional parks do fairly well even when the economy is performing poorly "was proven this year."

Fear of flying had less of an effect on the regional parks because they attract more visitors who travel by car. Many smaller parks launched successful campaigns to lure visitors within driving distance.

The Six Flags Great Adventure amusement park in Jackson, N.J., for example, saw attendance rise 1.7 percent to 3.56 million.

SeaWorld California in San Diego turned in the best performance by far among the 20 largest parks, with attendance surging 13 percent -- to 4.1 million -- because of brisk sales of season passes.

Worldwide, an estimated record 250 million people visited the 50 most popular theme parks in the world in 2001, a 2 percent increase over last year.

The global increase was fueled by the openings of Universal Studios Japan and Tokyo DisneySea. The most visited park in the world was Tokyo Disneyland, which drew an estimated 17.7 million people, a 7 percent increase over 2000, despite an ongoing economic slump in Japan.

Overall attendance at theme and amusement parks probably will be flat in the coming year, O’Brien predicted, but the regional parks should be able to build on their successes.

 

[ralphd]

I also read the article. Don't understand how some can talk about the downturn at Disney, yet say comparing the numbers are like 'comparing apples and oranges'. What can you compare?

ralphd

 

[DisDuck]

From the Duck.. My daughter and I (a minority of 2?) love AK and make it a must see each trip. Visited the West Coast in November and liked DCA. Found some touches of Disney Magic sometimes missing in there are parks. Like up close interaction with characters not just for pictures. Saw my Duck walking down the street arm-in-arm with a guest and Goofy.

Has Disney missed the beat lately. Yes but it did so in the early 80's also. I find that the 'what have you done for more lately' aspect of our society not hitting even theme parks. Each year there must be something greater/better/bigger/faster than last year. I prefer to sit back and smell the roses once in awhile at that is what Disney is like.

As the hard-core crew here knows, I am big on the subjective. Each of us brings our own likes/dislikes and personalities to how we view Disney. So we each see something different.

I liked Atlantis, Emperors, etc. I have seen the previews for Peter Pan II and Cinderella II. My daughter thinks PP will be good but made a face at CII. Me I will see first than decide. All subjective.


Still catching up with these threads (haven't made it to the debate board yet).

 

[KMovies]

California Adventure had the 9th highest rated attendance in the country - beating the #10 Universal Hollywood.

Animal Kingdom also beats Universal Studios Orlando.

Sure, neither of these parks has the 14.7 mil or 12.3 mil that Magic Kingdom or Disneyland has - but they still pull in respectable numbers.


(AP) -- Here's a look at the 20 most popular theme and amusement parks in North America, their 2001 attendance and the percentage change from last year as estimated by Amusement Business, a trade publication.

1. The Magic Kingdom at Walt Disney World, Orlando, Florida, 14.7 million, down 4 percent

2. Disneyland, Anaheim, California, 12.3 million, down 11 percent

3. Epcot at Walt Disney World, 9 million, down 15 percent

4. Disney-MGM Studios at Walt Disney World, 8.3 million, down 6 percent

5. Disney's Animal Kingdom at Walt Disney World, 7.7 million, down 7 percent

6. Universal Studios at Universal Orlando, 7.2 million, down 10 percent

7. Islands of Adventure at Universal Orlando, 5.5 million, down 8 percent

8. SeaWorld Orlando, 5.1 million, down 2 percent

9. Disney's California Adventure in Anaheim, California, 5 million, opened in 2001

10. Universal Studios Hollywood, 4.7 million, down 9 percent

11. Busch Gardens Tampa Bay, Florida, 4.6 million, down 8 percent

12. SeaWorld California in San Diego, 4.1 million, up 13 percent

13. Knott's Berry Farm, Buena Park, California, 3.58 million, down 3 percent

14. Six Flags Great Adventure, Jackson, New Jersey, 3.56 million, up 1.7 percent

15. Morey's Piers, Wildwood, New Jersey, 3.4 million, up 3 percent

15. Adventuredome at Circus Circus, Las Vegas, Nevada, 3.4 million, up 7 percent

17. Paramount's Kings Island, Mason, Ohio, 3.36 million, up 4 percent

18. Six Flags Magic Mountain, Valencia, California, 3.2 million, down 3 percent

19. Cedar Point, Sandusky, Ohio, 3.1 million, down 9 percent

20. Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk, California, 3 million, no change

------

Source: Amusement Business

 

[JimB.]

Just for a bit of clarification, PH has pulled in over $198 million domestically (6th largest grossing film of the year) & a total of (as of Dec 5th) $450 million including overseas, tops for the year (but probably surpassed by Shrek since then, so say #2 worldwide) + over $120 million in video sales.

I know it was a expensive film to make, but I think these numbers (especially for a 3 hour + film that has a really (ok, I'll admit it) BAD love story tossed in ) cannot say that this film has been anything other than a success for the company. Maybe not as much as hoped for, but still very successful.

Moving on................

Just because AK is not some peoples cup of tea does not make it bad. I happen to like it. Does that make everyone else wrong?? No. Just a difference of opinion. Pleasenote that Disney's WORST park (in some peoples' opinion) still pulls in more people than Universal's "BEST" park. Sounds like the "brand" is still holding up quite well, thank you.

all for now............... "Enterprise" is on..............

 

[Captain Crook]

Please note that Disney's WORST park (in some peoples opinion) still pulls in more people than Universal's "BEST" park.

A very significant piece of data indeed. The competetion or threat always seems so magnified here on the DIS...

 

[Another Voice]

Beware the whisperings of camels in a perilous time.
For numbers serve many masters – be they clicks of a turnstile or patrons in line.
One thing is certain, one thing is clear; no number is spoken without reason or rhyme.

Of course, the big story here is that once again it’s proven that Eisner’s management is a success beyond question. For the drop-off at WDW is caused by that horrible 15% loss at Epcot (it was the success of the Millennium Celebration, you see). Yes, that was the culprit. But ah, there’s a fix. For just in the nick of time, Eisner has brought forth ‘Mission: Space’ to bring back the crowds. Ah, the timing is perfect, the investment is just right. Let us get on the phone to proclaim this great wisdom. The Gnomes of The Street must hear this – for storm clouds gather and they must be appeased.

The camels are subtle and the camels are vague. A rounding here, a guest counted twice there that the numbers align with the stars as decreed. The Servants of The Great One do their best to make all seem right. Look not to the facts, they tell the Great Gnomes, this may be the last chance.

For tonight the camels do spin, they twist and they dance.

 

[YoHo]

.... They Spit


Unfortunatly, Every company is Messaging the numbers, so I guess its as good a comparison as any since all the numbers are wrong.

 

[raidermatt]

AV- Haven't seen Lord of the Rings, yet, so I'm not quite clear on whether you are bringing the numbers themselves into question, or the interpretation of their meaning.

If we are not going to at least for the most part trust that the numbers are accurate, their isn't much point in discussing. I suppose Disney could be padding their numbers, but since they don't release numbers, I'm not sure how they could be padding something they don't release. The trade pub could be off on their estimate, but again, what else can we go by?

If these numbers are at least in the ballpark, Disney has the five most attended parks in the country, four of which are in WDW. AK's attendance is only 7% below MGM. With no real interpretation, the numbers look pretty good.

With interpretation, there are some reasons for concern. USO is only 500k behind AK.

Speculation is that visitors to AK are not full-day visitors. Maybe true, but really, if the park were viewed as poorly as some say, why would so many spend even a partial day there?

DCA in 9th (2nd in CA) at 5 million appears to be a positve, especially when you consider that the park was not open a full year. But significant discounting was needed to reach this number, and most of the public's anticipation has waned, either through personal experience or word of mouth. It certainly appears DCA will fall behind USH in 2002.

Epcot down 15%, and AV points out the spin that has been put on this number. But if its only a spin to cover up a real problem, the proof would be in the attendance from 1998-2000. If there is no basis to the argument that the drop was due to the swell for the Millineum Celebration, a quick look at the numbers would bear that out. There will be no swell, and the difference from 1998 to 2001 will not compare favorably to the difference at other parks.

Percentage-wise, both Universal Orlando parks had larger decreases than 3 of the 4 WDW parks.

Clearly, there are some reasons for concern, but Disney is also clearly aware of them. The only real question is are the addressing them in the correct manner. But there is also reason to believe things are not all that bad in the theme park division, and may even be better than could be expected under the circumstances.