RAW file format

Snurk71

DIS Veteran
Joined
May 17, 2001
So, I read that if I shoot in Raw I might have more options for correcting the poor photos I tend to take. But I don't know what to strive for in editing. Is there a simple direction on how the RGB graph should look?

RGB.jpg


Should all of the colors be bunched up like above, or should they be more spread out? Or, am I just SOL on hoping for a simple direction on what I should be trying for?

Thanks
 
Unfortunately, there is no one simple histogram to try to get. Every shot is different. Generally try to have it cover the entire range without being bunched all at one end. Make sure that you do your white balance before doing your curves and/or levels as that will also change the histogram.

Kevin
 
The "bunching" of the graph has a lot to do with the scene. If you shoot a black and white checkered flag you will have spikes oneach end and none in the middle.

I don't remember how to edit a jpeg! the raw converters are so easy to use....
I use Adobe CR2 and Bridge. When I shoot a few gigs at the theater I scan through the RAWs and choose the group of shots with the same lighting. Then send them to the editer and do the adjustments by eye. A little sharpening, white balance adjustments. Maybe exposure and shadows/highlights.

Mikeeee
 
correct me if i'm wrong...like i had to even say that...but i was under the impression raw=you keep all the data until you decide what to process out vs jpg=the camera makes that decision for you...due to a thread i won't mention it appears some were saying they both are unequally processed when straight from the camera which i thought was the whole point of raw, you rather than the camera do the processing but eventually both are processed just by either you or the camera....yes or no?

so wouldn't it be wrong to say a jpg straight from the camera is less processed than a raw that has been tweaked via conversion,not talking crop and stuff which i guess some cameras do that as well now, i mean the basic saturation, sharpen stuff a jpg has done to it by the camera?

or maybe i dreamed that all :) ;)
 
but eventually both are processed just by either you or the camera....yes or no?

YES both are eventually processed, but some feel that if one uses anything but DEFAULT CONVERSION settings on a RAW file it would be considered "editing". While in camera parameters(settings) can be used to create many many different types of looks straight from the camera.

Take Noise reduction, many Point and shoot cameras apply very heavy noise reduction on higher ISO shots during their processing. But if one runs noise reduction on a RAW conversion(during the conversion) some consider that to be "altering" the image.


so wouldn't it be wrong to say a jpg straight from the camera is less processed than a raw that has been tweaked via conversion,not talking crop and stuff which i guess some cameras do that as well now, i mean the basic saturation, sharpen stuff a jpg has done to it by the camera?
I am not sure if it is wrong or right, just different point of views.

If I tweak the settings on a raw file to give me the image that I intended on capturing in the first place, it is neither more nor less processed. They were both processed just as much, just with different settings. With jpegs the settings can be changed in camera, while with RAW files you change the settings in software. Yes it is obvious that RAW conversions can give much more flexibility, but in camera settings can be very aggressive.
 
correct me if i'm wrong...like i had to even say that...but i was under the impression raw=you keep all the data until you decide what to process out vs jpg=the camera makes that decision for you...due to a thread i won't mention it appears some were saying they both are unequally processed when straight from the camera which i thought was the whole point of raw, you rather than the camera do the processing but eventually both are processed just by either you or the camera....yes or no?

so wouldn't it be wrong to say a jpg straight from the camera is less processed than a raw that has been tweaked via conversion,not talking crop and stuff which i guess some cameras do that as well now, i mean the basic saturation, sharpen stuff a jpg has done to it by the camera?

or maybe i dreamed that all :) ;)

if you are referring to the contestrules thread... I didn't see anyone say that,


when you open a raw file with software, there are certain default settings for exposure,white balance,etc. these things have to be set somewhere to view the file.

as for the jpeg it is possibly less processed than the raw file, after the photographer edits the raw, depends on how much processing they do...

the point I was making was you have less control over the in camera processing, since that does the processing based on set parameters, if the camera were capable of editing perfectly there would be no need for raw, with raw editing you have so much more control and more latitude with your edits,

hence the idea of opening your raw files then saving immediately using only the softwares defaults, that would be closer to the same results for the jpeg..


oops just saw that thread was locked..I guess I shouldn't have mentioned it here....
 
My understanding is this:

1) Light comes into the camera
2) Light gets converted to digital values
3) Camera does a wee bit of processing

***If you are shooting JPG***
5) Additional processing occurs to adjust contrast, sharpness, noise reduction, saturation, white balance and probably a few other things I'm missing.
6) RAW data is compressed into JPG format
7) JPG data is written to the memory card

***If you are shooting RAW***
5) "RAW" data is compressed and written in your camera's RAW format along with metadata about the camera's settings for values like white balance, saturation, etc.

When viewing any file, RAW or JPG, your computer must convert it to a displayable set of colors. With JPG, that's pretty straightforward (ignoring the whole subject of colorspaces). With RAW, it's a little more complicated.

The RAW file really map directly to colors to display. There needs to be work done to demosaic the pixels because each one is all red, all blue, or all green (ignoring Foveon sensors). RAW files are also unadjusted for things like white balance, saturation, etc. The RAW processing software can do the conversion using the values for white balance, saturation, etc stored with the image. Or it can examine the image and guess at values it thinks are good. Or it can use basic defaults and let you make adjustments. Every RAW conversion package is different in how it does the conversion.

The RAW conversion software that I'm most familiar with (Lightroom and Adobe Camera RAW), starts with basic values for most settings and you adjust them to suit your needs when you do the conversion. There really isn't a meaningful "default" mode. You could leave the values untouched, but that's a bit like not salting your fries. The cook assumed that you would use some salt, but he didn't know how much, so he left it up to you.

For the purposes of trying to compare a RAW file to a JPG, there really isn't a great apples-to-apples comparison. I suppose that if you used the camera makers software and they used the same algorithms and you set up your converter to respect settings in the camera at the time, you could get it pretty close. But that's just not the way RAW shooters shoot.

My local photography group has struggled with the issue for it's photo contests. Their guiding philosophy is that you cannot perform any manipluations that you could do in a darkroom without taking extreme measures. In other words, you can do basic things like crop and adjust exposure. Some people are agitating that the rules be changed to allow any global processing (adjustments that affect the entire photo) and dust removal.

My own personal philosophy (and I'm not advocating for its use in contests here or at our local club) is that the art of photography includes everything that can be done to create the image that tells the story you want told. That means adjusting the scene - using flash, using diffusers, posing subjects, moving elements. That means using filters - polarizers, graduated neutral density filters, star filters. That means using every possible setting on your camera - second curtain sync, high fps, long shutter speeds. That means using all of the post processing tools at your disposal.

When comparing the work of various photographers, I can see the need to try to keep a relatively level playing field between film and digital shooters and between those that have extensive post-processing capabilities and those that do not. The problem is that film and digital aren't the same. RAW and JPG aren't the same. They require different techniques. The best you can do is come up with some guidelines and hope that people follow them.

I confess that with my contest postings, I use the basic adjusments in lightroom (generally white balance, exposure, black level, vibrance). The problem is that I couldn't use many of my shots if I didn't. I shoot with the assumption that I will be performing those adjustments.

I purposefully overexpose shots because brighter images are richer and more noise free. However, if I didn't adjust the exposure downward as part of development, my shots would look terrible and not the way I intended when I shot.

I pay almost no attention to the white balance when I shoot. I like to adjust my white balance to what is "correct" for the lighting in post-production and then I often adjust it a bit to warm or cool the scene as befits it. If I was shooting JPG, I'd spend more time trying to get it right before I shot, but I'd rather spend that time on my computer at home than I would on my vacation.

I add vibrance because my camera (and I think all DSLRs record RAW files with no additional saturation, making the pictures look relatively unsaturated).

I sharpen my pictures because the demosaicing filter on a digital camera purposefully blurs the image to prevent moire patterns. It is expected that you will sharpen the image as part of your processing.

To sum up, RAW conversion isn't straightforward. There isn't a meaningful "default" conversion. For situations in which my shots are going to be compared with JPGs, I just try to stay roughly within the capabilities of what I could do with a JPG, although I'll freely admit that it's much easier for me to make the best decision with a RAW file and before/after views than it is to work it out before shooting in the field.
 
thanks, not trying to start a problem just wondering but that was what made me wonder, not that someone "said it" but that it appeared some felt the jpgs weren't processed at all where as straight from the camera i thought they were already processed, just done automatically by the camera( ie noise, if it's on auto i think it even changes the iso and saturation sometimes, i know it changes the aperture etc) which is basically what i would maybe do with a raw image, just maybe not as much or slightly differently.

i would have asked it then except i just found the thread and it was closed already. on my camera i can set parameters or on the xti/30 d it has picture styles which is kind of more like what a P&s or auto would do in that it's done pre-processing(except you chose it)

...from what i understand unless i am understanding it wrong..... which is why i asked;)

edited as
i just read mark's explanation which was informative so thanks...since i don't enter the contests except very rarely and then only with film (since i haven't been to wdw in my "digital period" )that is not an issue for me, it was more of a general ?

truthfully i'm of the school that says unless you are taking a photojournalism type shot or a contest that says that it has to be an accurate representation ( ie not a 30 ft wave when it was a 2 ft wave) it's the same as "Poetic license"...and do what you want...
 
oops just saw that thread was locked..I guess I shouldn't have mentioned it here....

I probably should clarify the locked thread and the discussion contained within.

I think the subject matter of what constitutes photo editing within a RAW photo is a fascinating subject that we as photographers should explore. It is a hotly debatable subject not just here but throughout the industry.

My purpose for locking that thread was that I didn't think it was appropriate to constrain the subject and single out Dana's contest. She was kind of stuck in the middle of the crossfire and I didn't think that was fair. She is just trying to run a simple contest and suddenly found herself in the midst of a historic crossroads in photography. I was hoping that by closing that thread that a few users would take it upon themselves to start a new thread where we could discuss the aspects of what constitutes photo editing in general. Fortunately that is exactly what is happening here (sometimes a plan does come together).

I am totally cool with the discussion and the subject matter. I just wanted to raise it up a level above the photo contest being run voluntarily on the board. So please do not think the subject is taboo. Quite the opposite, I think it is something each of us should contemplate and weigh in on.

Besides the technical aspects I think there are ethical implications that each of us will face when we are asked whether images we have created were "edited". Honestly I have no idea how I would handle that question if it were posed to me. I shoot in RAW because I like to be able to control the aspects of a digital negative in post production. If I somehow mess up the white balance while in the field I want the ability to adjust it accordingly. If I forgot to add a polarizer to deepen the colors I want the ability to increase the saturation. If I needed the speed of a faster ISO but didn't want increased noise as an unwanted bi-product I want to be able to eliminate it. Shooting RAW gives me that flexibility. Does that mean I am editing the photo? I don't think it does. I think it means I am preparing the RAW materials to describe a scene as my mind's eye envisioned it.

Each of the above examples of post processing could be solved at the time of shooting the photo. I can adjust the white balance to give the image a blue tone or an orange hue that was not actually how the scene appeared. If I add a polarizer filter to my camera I can increase the saturation of an image when it is taken. If I want to reduce noise levels I can set noise reduction and sharpening in my camera and I can introduce light where none existed. Why does it matter whether I do that prior to the moment I press the shutter release or at home in the comfort of my den in front of a computer? Why is it "editing" if I make these changes to a RAW file but "creative" if I make these changes to my camera before I take the picture? There is definitely a double standard in how an image is captured and I can't figure out why we allow that to be acceptable.

Jeff
 
To me, the whole thing is silly. As Jeff stated, there is a double standard, maybe even worse. The camera may perform more (or less, or the same) image editing in it's conversion to jpg than we do in our raw conversion.

I may do the same editing that I used to do in my darkroom, and it was ok then but it is not ok when done on a computer now.

A photographic image is a non-literal representation of a live scene, modified by the lens, camera, film, sensor, enlarger, paper, computer, what have you. There is no "straight out of the camera". The concept of that does not exist and never has, except in the mind of some photographic purists who don't understand how an image is captured and presented.

Should we have rules? Sure, but they will continually multiply as new photographic processes are invented until we have more rules than photographs. Let those who can process to their hearts content, a good photograph taken by a talented photographer will stand on it's own regardless of editing.

That is where the p&s can compete against any dSLR and computer. It's not about the camera or software, but all about the photographer! imho... ;)
 
Each of the above examples of post processing could be solved at the time of shooting the photo. I can adjust the white balance to give the image a blue tone or an orange hue that was not actually how the scene appeared. If I add a polarizer filter to my camera I can increase the saturation of an image when it is taken. If I want to reduce noise levels I can set noise reduction and sharpening in my camera and I can introduce light where none existed. Why does it matter whether I do that prior to the moment I press the shutter release or at home in the comfort of my den in front of a computer? Why is it "editing" if I make these changes to a RAW file but "creative" if I make these changes to my camera before I take the picture? There is definitely a double standard in how an image is captured and I can't figure out why we allow that to be acceptable.

Jeff

Incredibly well stated Jeff.

I also liked how you said (in the closed thread) that if a painted adds or subtracts a tree from a painting no one thinks twice about it. But if a photographer does it - it is looked down upon.

I think more people (like you said) do not yet look at photography as an art form but instead the ultimate capture of truth. Hopefully in time photography will be recognized as an art form. I do think the Truth aspect needs to be upheld in photojournalism however.
 
As you probably know if you read the other thread, I too am perplexed by the notion that it's all hunky dory if done in camera, but the same adjustments made in post processing are somehow cheating (not just in terms of a contest, but with regard to the competency of the photographer).

Part of it seems to stem from a misconception about the capabilities of RAW. Some people appear to believe that you can magically take a lousy exposure, tweak a few settings and make it look great. I've been shooting primarily in RAW because I like the flexibility it gives me to make some creative decisions about white balance, saturation, etc. after the fact., and the dynamic range is certainly improved over my JPEGs. But I've yet to take a photo that is improperly exposed or otherwise wouldn't have been acceptable had I shot it in JPEG to begin with and turn it into something I'd want to display anywhere.
 
.

There is no "straight out of the camera". The concept of that does not exist and never has, except in the mind of some photographic purists who don't understand how an image is captured and presented.

;)

I respectfully disagree,, straight out of the camera does indeed exist, whether it be minimally processed or heavily processed by changing camera settings, the image that results without post processing, is by the very definition, straight out of the camera...


now to word it differently, a non processed digital image doesn't really exist..
 
As you probably know if you read the other thread, I too am perplexed by the notion that it's all hunky dory if done in camera, but the same adjustments made in post processing are somehow cheating (not just in terms of a contest, but with regard to the competency of the photographer).

.

I think the difference there is that most cameras allow the in camera adjustments, so anyone with a decent digital camera has that option, not everyone has editing software, nor the knowledge to use it well...
 
I think the difference there is that most cameras allow the in camera adjustments, so anyone with a decent digital camera has that option, not everyone has editing software, nor the knowledge to use it well...

Most people don't have the knowledge to use their cameras well either. What's the difference?
 
Most people don't have the knowledge to use their cameras well either. What's the difference?

well that will certainly encourage more people to join the contest...:eek:


whether true or not at least they have the camera, and todays cameras do a decent job at making most people appear to be at least adequate
 
As you probably know if you read the other thread, I too am perplexed by the notion that it's all hunky dory if done in camera, but the same adjustments made in post processing are somehow cheating (not just in terms of a contest, but with regard to the competency of the photographer).

There is one main difference I can see. Regardless of what settings I select (Sharpening/Contrast/White Balance/etc.) in-camera, those settings will get applied to the photo I take at that time.

I can look at the picture on the LCD and if I don't really like it I can change settings and take another picture or another ... but each picture is different.

However, when PP, I can take the *same* picture and keep changing and tweaking and modifying it. I'm looking at the picture on a large computer screen, able to easily and instantly determine what every little tweak of the Levels or Curves (or whatever) does to my picture. If you wanted to, you could make hundreds or thousands of minute changes.

That option doesn't exist if you're standing in one place taking the same picture over and over. At the very least your family will get tired of waiting for you ... or it will eventually get dark! :)
 
well that will certainly encourage more people to join the contest...:eek:


whether true or not at least they have the camera, and todays cameras do a decent job at making most people appear to be at least adequate

I wasn't talking about the contest; I don't want to get another thread locked. :scared1:

You suggested that the double standard or difference in perspective wrt in camera adjustments as opposed to pp is attributable to the expense and learning curve associated with the software. But there is a learning curve associated with making in camera adjustments too. Most most people never take their cameras out of auto mode, and you're right that in most cases they get adequate results. But if you want better than adequate results you need to venture out of auto and learn to use your camera. And I don't see a significant difference between learning to use the settings on your camera and learning to do a little post processing.

As for the expense, I think it's a red herring. I doubt that PSE or Paintshop are out of reach for many people who are able to buy a digital camera, and if they are there's always Picasa and other freebies out there.

Personally I think there's a certain snob appeal to saying you got it right "straight out of the camera," whatever that means, and as I said I think that displays some lack of understanding about pp and what photographers did/do in the darkroom. Another disclaimer: I'm not talking about the contest!
 
That option doesn't exist if you're standing in one place taking the same picture over and over. At the very least your family will get tired of waiting for you ... or it will eventually get dark! :)

I think what you're saying is true to a point. But it's not as if you can just capture one image and change everything about it. For instance, there's not much you can do about depth of field in pp (well, you can try to blur the background, but that generally doesn't work very well, IMO), so I do make my kids wait while I play with various apertures, etc. But part of the beauty of RAW and pp is certainly the ability to tweak things on the computer after my kids are asleep and not pulling on my arms saying "Mom, would you stop taking pictures and come on?"
 

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