Should DCL get an government payment due to Cover-19?

[CampbellzSoup]

No. They have used foreign flags to avoid paying U.S. taxes and absolutely should not be bailed out by the U.S. taxpayers. If they are, it better be a loan that has to be paid back in full and with interest, and it better come with strings attached like protections for consumers and workers. In the end, if they have to be U.S flagged, they could travel from one U.S. port to another, which would be good for business in that sense and open up travel options for Americans who don't want to get passports for whatever reason.

Absolutely 100% correct.

 

[mmouse37]

Oi! Any excuse for popcorn! I'm adding caramel to mine.

I am currently having popcorn with some M&M's thrown in!!!

MJ

 

[smmco]

Agreed. They do take it too far. I usually enjoy when that happens.

There are a lot of communities that allow that. I guess it could be entertaining to some people as long as your not the one getting piled on.

 

[Mainsail Minnie]

Are any of the other cruise lines owned by some other company that owns other types of businesses? I think DCL will be able to survive without any govt help since they are owned by Disney. Does Carnival or Royal Caribbean or the other lines have a parent company they can rely on for help?

I don't know, but I don't think it matters. The U.S. government doesn't owe them any support. They essentially operate as foreign companies and contribute very little to the United States.

 

[lklgoodman]

I don't know, but I don't think it matters. The U.S. government doesn't owe them any support. They essentially operate as foreign companies and contribute very little to the United States.

I agree the cruiselines shouldn't get money from the US. I'm just wondering if they are owned by some other huge company, hoping perhaps someone on here might know.

 

[Adventurelawyer]

I am currently having popcorn with some M&M's thrown in!!!

MJ

That sounds amazing!

 

[mmackeymouse]

I'm going to say yes, for the same reason I am going to say yes about the airline industry, film industry, etc. The issue is...these losses, it's not like the companies themselves are going to take the blow, or the CEOs either. The people that are going to be hurt are the employees, as many will lose jobs, and the consumer, because price hikes will be passed down to them.

I personally don't want to pay $500 for a one way flight to Orlando. And, I don't particularly want to pay $4k for a 3 night cruise, either.

 

[Club Disney Chandler]

Why would the thread get "ugly". Sure people will disagree but that is one of the best things about the United States. We are allowed to disagree. I hardly call that ugly.

Because a lot of people on here don’t know how to play nice. I totally believe you can disagree with someone in a calm respective way. Unfortunately, that generally doesn’t happen on social media. So far, it looks like I’m wrong.

 

[Illini_Fan]

I agree the cruiselines shouldn't get money from the US. I'm just wondering if they are owned by some other huge company, hoping perhaps someone on here might know.

Carnival is the largest in terms of passengers carried with over 100 ships across their ten brands

Royal Caribbean is largest by revenue and 2nd by passengers

According to Wikipedia

 

[truck1]

Are any of the other cruise lines owned by some other company that owns other types of businesses? I think DCL will be able to survive without any govt help since they are owned by Disney. Does Carnival or Royal Caribbean or the other lines have a parent company they can rely on for help?

Carnival is the parent company of several lines. Cunard, Princess, Costa, are a few off the top of my head. RCCL also has a few under them, Pullmantur is one, just off the top of my head. RCCL is a little different then CCL, but I don't remember how off hand.

 

[DisneyWishes14]

No, the US should absolutely not bail out the cruise industry. Cruises are a luxury and, as others have said, have found ways to circumvent paying US taxes and abiding by US labor laws and paying people fair wages. This is not the auto industry or the banking industry. Cruise lines exacerbated the horrible situation we all find ourselves in now and, quite honestly, if Carnival goes down because of this, so be it. To say they were negligent in the Diamond and Grand Princess situations is an understatement. We already bailed them out by evacuating and providing medical care for their passengers - I'm sure that cost millions of taxpayer money.

 

[Intr3pid]

I agree the cruiselines shouldn't get money from the US. I'm just wondering if they are owned by some other huge company, hoping perhaps someone on here might know.

The three major cruise lines - Carnival, RCL, and NCL - are headquartered in Miami with shares listed on the US stock exchanges. Their core business is cruising, so they don't really have another parent company to look up to.

Most of the operating companies/divisions were incorporated in Panama, Liberia, or the UK. Plus, more than 90% of the the world's total merchant fleet is foreign flagged. We are talking more than 50,000 ships - of which less than 400 are cruise ships.

US has bilateral tax treaties around the world. US IRS code s883 exempts any international marine business from taxation if more than 50% of the income is generated in international waters. And this is reciprocal. Income from the ships owned by, say, the major US oil producers and shipping companies isn't taxed overseas either.

As much as any assistance to the industry looks terrible, if Carnival and RCL go under, they will probably take several US businesses (such as Miami and PC ports) down with them as well. It will likely have a domino effect on tourism and broader economy in Florida, Texas, and California.

 

[hrhdhd]

Carnival is the parent company of several lines. Cunard, Princess, Costa, are a few off the top of my head. RCCL also has a few under them, Pullmantur is one, just off the top of my head. RCCL is a little different then CCL, but I don't remember how off hand.

CCL is the cruise line; Carnival Corp. is the umbrella company, which includes the ones you named as well as Holland America Line.

RCCL is the umbrella over Royal Caribbean, Celebrity, and Azamara. Also Silversea (just recently).

 

[Quellman]

Let's not forget that Disney Cruiseline is actually called the Magical Cruise Company Limited and is registered at 3 Queen Caroline Street London, W6 9PE United Kingdom.

 

[AlohaNow]

Absolutely not. As stated up-thread, cruising is a luxury item. Now one can argue that airline travel is too, but the airlines are used for business travel as well. Cruising is not. I love to cruise, but there would never be a time that I would think it appropriate for my fellow taxpayers to subsidize my vacations.

 

[RAD]

Maybe Disney won't be looking for government assistance, https://seekingalpha.com/news/35539...tm_campaign=rta-stock-news&utm_content=link-3

 

[Mainsail Minnie]

The three major cruise lines - Carnival, RCL, and NCL - are headquartered in Miami with shares listed on the US stock exchanges.

As much as any assistance to the industry looks terrible, if Carnival and RCL go under, they will probably take several US businesses (such as Miami and PC ports) down with them as well. It will likely have a domino effect on tourism and broader economy in Florida, Texas, and California.

People from around the world put money in the stock exchange. That isn't just an American thing. And competant investors diversify their portfolios to ensure that a downturn in one industry won't devastate their stock portfolios.

Carnival and RCL going under will be devastating to the corporate boards of Carnival and RCL, to their mostly foreign crews, a few thousand U.S. port workers, and some small businesses in port towns in Alaska. That's it, and that's not enough to justify a massive taxpayer-funded bailout.

It will not cause a "domino effect" on tourism throughout Florida, which is a mecca for tourism for many other reasons (theme parks, beaches, the Keys, etc.) It will barely be a blip on the radar of Texas and California, which are massive states with highly diversified economies and tourist opportunities that are mostly unrelated to cruising.

 

[Intr3pid]

People from around the world put money in the stock exchange. That isn't just an American thing. And competant investors diversify their portfolios to ensure that a downturn in one industry won't devastate their stock portfolios.

Carnival and RCL going under will be devastating to the corporate boards of Carnival and RCL, to their mostly foreign crews, a few thousand U.S. port workers, and some small businesses in port towns in Alaska. That's it, and that's not enough to justify a massive taxpayer-funded bailout.

It will not cause a "domino effect" on tourism throughout Florida, which is a mecca for tourism for many other reasons (theme parks, beaches, the Keys, etc.) It will barely be a blip on the radar of Texas and California, which are massive states with highly diversified economies and tourist opportunities that are mostly unrelated to cruising.

Shareholder loss is not the issue here. Every equity investment carries this risk, and Carnival and RCL are no exceptions.

Now, for 'few thousand port workers', there are more than 140,000 people employed in Florida's port sector at the moment. This number doesn't include all those in related jobs such as accounting firms providing services to the ports. An average cruise ship employs about 1,000 crew, and there are a max of about 60 of them in Florida in the peak season (down to less than 20 in the summer).

See page 8 for a summary of these numbers:
http://scdn.flaports.org/wp-content/uploads/EconomicImpactsofFloridaSeaports.pdf

The big ports in Florida (Miami, PC, Everglades) have more than 15 million cruise passengers passing through them annually. That's almost 15% of the all tourists in Florida. On top of the port fees, the cruise guests spend on hotels, meals, transportation and shopping before/after the cruise. Those businesses then go on to employ staff to meet the demand, and the staff then spends on yet other goods and services.

Source of passenger numbers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_cruise_ports_by_passengers

Source of cruise arrival numbers:
http://crew-center.com/analysis-florida-cruise-statistics-ports-2017

None of this warrants a bailout. Cruise industry isn't an essential service - or a part of our physical/digital infrastructure. If the industry goes down because the demand disappears, that's just economics 101. We aren't bailing out malls either, as they die a slow death at the hands of Amazon, Costco, and Walmart.

BUT - cruising is a fast-growing US vacation and travel choice, and it does have a substantial impact on certain parts of the economy. There are creative ways to help this industry - any industry - if it has taken a disproportionate hit due to something we all agree we need to fight.

 

[vincep]

I'm going to say yes, for the same reason I am going to say yes about the airline industry, film industry, etc. The issue is...these losses, it's not like the companies themselves are going to take the blow, or the CEOs either. The people that are going to be hurt are the employees, as many will lose jobs, and the consumer, because price hikes will be passed down to them.

I personally don't want to pay $500 for a one way flight to Orlando. And, I don't particularly want to pay $4k for a 3 night cruise, either.

Nobody would be forcing you to.

 

[mmackeymouse]

Nobody would be forcing you to.

No of course not. No one would be forcing me to. But, it's just an example of how NOT bailing out the travel/entertainment industry hurts the average person.

People think it's all about saving the bigwigs and corporations, when really, anything that hurts the industry, WILL eventually hurt the consumer.