The Running Thread—2023

[FFigawi]

These are the methods you can set in Garmin Connect:

View attachment 808816

I remember reading somewhere, possibly TrainingPeaks, that %Max HR is the least accurate and to go with one of the other two. I know I read that %LTHR was better but not all that different from %HRR but I really can't remember where. Also possibly TrainingPeaks.

To the original question, I use perceived effort in conjunction with HR. My chest strap always seems more accurate based on actual HR vs perceived but it is a learning process. Over time you'll learn what effort and HR match up.



I don't experience either of those issue but I always foam roll and use my TheraGun after long runs so maybe that is helping me clear out anything stuck in the muscles.

Here’s a great article from Training Peaks on how to calculate and set your HR zones

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/learn/articles/joe-friel-s-quick-guide-to-setting-zones/

 

[striker1064]

1. Do you have trouble sleeping the night after a long run? If so, do you have any strategies that help you sleep?

2. Do you get muscle spasms or twitchiness in your legs after long runs? Again, if so, do you have any strategies that help with this?

Yep! I'm about 50/50 if I sleep well after a long run or not. It doesn't matter when I do the run during the day. I believe this is from overtraining, because any single long run is inherently overtraining. I also do get restless leg syndrome sometimes on those nights. I have no strategies except when it happens, I get out of bed and try to wear out my legs by jumping, stretching, etc. It's annoying, but that usually works.

Maybe a QOTD: Are there any other large-field, big city marathons that folks recommend?

MCM was pretty great!

 

[DopeyBadger]

1. Do you have trouble sleeping the night after a long run? If so, do you have any strategies that help you sleep?

Not necessarily long runs, but I do tend to have issues sleeping after very hard effort runs that are in the evening. My body turns into a furnace, and I've found my solution is to make sure my bedroom is very cold. So we keep the house around 59-62F overnight and I have a ceiling fan on.

 

[accm]

I updated the settings on my Garmin, and it still has me in zone 4. So I’m thinking either my max heart rate isn’t right, so something?
This is from a run at warmup pace. I never felt tired or like I was working hard for the whole run, but it still has me in a high zone the whole time. Im wondering at this point if I should just ignore it? At least until I’m able to do a lactate threshold test?

 

[WillRunForPizza]

I updated the settings on my Garmin, and it still has me in zone 4. So I’m thinking either my max heart rate isn’t right, so something?
This is from a run at warmup pace. I never felt tired or like I was working hard for the whole run, but it still has me in a high zone the whole time. Im wondering at this point if I should just ignore it? At least until I’m able to do a lactate threshold test?
View attachment 809030

Aren't those the same zones as before, though? Can you manually update them using one of the zone calculators people have posted? That doesn't look right for a max HR of 190+.

For example, here's my zones (from Strava) for a recent easy run. I put my max HR as 203, and my zone 5 is 196+ (so range of 8). Based on that, I'd expect your zone 5 to start at 180-something and this has it at 171.

 

[GollyGadget]

I updated the settings on my Garmin, and it still has me in zone 4. So I’m thinking either my max heart rate isn’t right, so something?
This is from a run at warmup pace. I never felt tired or like I was working hard for the whole run, but it still has me in a high zone the whole time. Im wondering at this point if I should just ignore it? At least until I’m able to do a lactate threshold test?
View attachment 809030

Did you update the zones themselves? Mine are based on %HRR with a maxHR of 196. I don’t expect ours to match exactly but I would expect more overlap. However, your zone 4 is practically equal to my zone 3.


I’m very good at running slow

 

[DopeyBadger]

I updated the settings on my Garmin, and it still has me in zone 4. So I’m thinking either my max heart rate isn’t right, so something?
This is from a run at warmup pace. I never felt tired or like I was working hard for the whole run, but it still has me in a high zone the whole time. Im wondering at this point if I should just ignore it? At least until I’m able to do a lactate threshold test?
View attachment 809030

What’s your presumed max based on your data and your resting heart rate?

In my view, effort and pace are the primary standards of training. We setup the original pace scheme using recent race data to best approximate current fitness. We then design training plans with the goal of mostly easy running and depending on the number of days per week some harder workouts. We adjust the pace scheme based on temperature and elevation changes in a daily basis. But we always leave the door open to adjusting the paces even slower than originally set by effort. If something feels too hard, then slow down and be consistent. A good skill to learn for race day. My motto is, “It isn’t easy unless it feels easy.” So if you’re scheduled a 9:00 but it doesn’t feel easy and 10:00 does, then run 10:00. If 8:30 feels easy but you’re scheduled for 9:00, then run 9:00. If you’re scheduled for 10 miles at 9:00 but don’t think Mile 1 and Mile 10 can both be 9:00 because it’s too hard and you’ll fade, then slow down at the onset. Pick up the pace late if things feel alright.

I view HR as a secondary measure. It’s nice to see but I don’t make adjustments based on that data in training all that often. I rely on pace and effort. Post run, HR is useful to look at from a zoomed out perspective to gain ideas about progression. If I run a 9:00 at 150 bpm under a certain set of conditions in May, and then run 9:00 at 130 bpm under the same conditions in November, then I’m likely making good fitness progression.

I do tinker with HR in racing. I know my historical HR for different distances. If I’m flying way over average then I know I’m probably going too fast. So I sometimes set an alarm for the early miles to make sure I don’t go over a certain HR based on my personal data on this exact same device. All the while paying more attention to effort and pace goals.

 

[Zutroy]

I updated the settings on my Garmin, and it still has me in zone 4. So I’m thinking either my max heart rate isn’t right, so something?
This is from a run at warmup pace. I never felt tired or like I was working hard for the whole run, but it still has me in a high zone the whole time. Im wondering at this point if I should just ignore it? At least until I’m able to do a lactate threshold test?

I think you should just give up tinkering with your watch and adopt my training philosophy

 

[jmasgat]

Afternoon project......medal cull.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Anyone else get the Advent Health survey about future offerings at runDisney weekends? Mostly about several different programs/offerings they're considering having at future weekends. I took screenshots of the information, but not sure how tsk-tsk it is to share that kind of information.

 

[GuinnessRunner]

Anyone else get the Advent Health survey about future offerings at runDisney weekends?

Was just coming here to ask the same. I got it and thought some of the ideas were interesting if done right, although I would probably be too cheap to pay the prices they threw out for them (edited to wonder if the prices they suggest varied based on what I indicated I would be willing to pay since it seemed odd to ask me what I would pay and then have the next question be if it cost $X how interested would you be).

As to your question about sharing, legally nothing wrong with it (surveys often say they are confidential, but unless it's one where they pay you for that confidentiality - they can't enforce it). Not sure if boards have a policy on it.

 

[The Expert]

I took screenshots

WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR???!!! SHOW US!!!

 

[DopeyBadger]

They didn't give me any prices on the above because I said I wasn't interested.



I said I'd be willing to pay $40 for a single day and $60 for the weekend. They wanted $350 and $500 if memory serves me correctly.



Said I was interested, but they'd have to prove they're better than local options of a similar nature. I can get something similar from my own PT for $15. I said maybe $100 if the expertise was proven. They wanted a couple hundred from what I remember.



Offered a woman's specific package as well, but I'm not a woman, so it didn't mean anything to me. The cost was slightly higher on this one.

ETA- Then they tried to sweeten the pot on these two programs by offering:

-text exchange check in with PT
-character messages you encouragement
-swag bag
-stickers and acknowledgement
-meet pt morning of race for pre-race stretch
-exclusive meet and greet with Disney character

Same cost and if that makes you more likely to sign up for it.

They had me do several different rankings of the different offerings as well.

 

[DisneyParrothead]

View attachment 809205

They didn't give me any prices on the above because I said I wasn't interested.

View attachment 809204

I said I'd be willing to pay $40 for a single day and $60 for the weekend. They wanted $350 and $500 if memory serves me correctly.

View attachment 809203

Said I was interested, but they'd have to prove they're better than local options of a similar nature. I can get something similar from my own PT for $15. I said maybe $100 if the expertise was proven. They wanted a couple hundred from what I remember.

View attachment 809202

Offered a woman's specific package as well, but I'm not a woman, so it didn't mean anything to me. The cost was slightly higher on this one.

They had me do several different rankings of the different offerings as well.

I'll get snarky and say of course the women's specific package is slightly higher . I understand where they're coming from, but it's similar to your comments on the general PT package. I have established relationships with my care crew at home, so I wouldn't pay for something like this.

The only thing that could interest me is a foam roller in the room. I brought my travel size one to Princess this year and had to check a suitcase to do it. Princess was my first ever back to back races and I wanted some extra TLC options in the room. Since I'm flying Southwest next year, checking a bag would be free, so the in-room items wouldn't be necessary for me.

 

[The Expert]

Innnnteresting. At those prices I'd probably pass, but would jump on an alacart post race massage. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

View attachment 809205

They didn't give me any prices on the above because I said I wasn't interested.

View attachment 809204

I said I'd be willing to pay $40 for a single day and $60 for the weekend. They wanted $350 and $500 if memory serves me correctly.

View attachment 809203

Said I was interested, but they'd have to prove they're better than local options of a similar nature. I can get something similar from my own PT for $15. I said maybe $100 if the expertise was proven. They wanted a couple hundred from what I remember.

View attachment 809202

Offered a woman's specific package as well, but I'm not a woman, so it didn't mean anything to me. The cost was slightly higher on this one.

ETA- Then they tried to sweeten the pot on these two programs by offering:

-text exchange check in with PT
-character messages you encouragement
-swag bag
-stickers and acknowledgement
-meet pt morning of race for pre-race stretch
-exclusive meet and greet with Disney character

Same cost and if that makes you more likely to sign up for it.

They had me do several different rankings of the different offerings as well.

Pass. Do they still have the massage tents? I used to tuck a couple of 20's in my belt for post-race massage.

 

[camaker]

Pass. Do they still have the massage tents? I used to tuck a couple of 20's in my belt for post-race massage.

So many places to go with this one. None of them appropriate...

 

[nancipants]

UGH, it got "hot" again.

 

[PrincessV]

Morning! Between Life and W&D, I haven’t had time to do much DISing lately, but I’m trying to catch up. Congrats to all who’ve toed the lines and smashed some goals recently!

I have an update to share - it could get stupidly long, but I’ll try to keep it brief. Ish.

I finally bought the book “Next Level” by Stacey Sims and Selena Yeager - basically a guide to dealing with the challenges (which is a REALLY nice way of putting it) of perimenopause and menopause as an aging female athlete. It’s been enormously eye-opening and helpful!

Consider this: my generation and beyond are the first to have benefited from Title IX - the first really large group of US women to have had wide access to sport is just now hitting the menopausal stage of life, which means there’s been precious little research into how peri/menopause impacts the athletic female body. We’re only just beginning to figure things out. Which is why it’s so incredibly hard to get good sports medical care with peri/menopause in mind.

Anyway, the book is chock full of wisdom, advice, very specific tips for supplements, training, and more. I highly recommend it! And I won’t attempt to regurgitate much of it here, but a couple things I learned have totally transformed my approach to training and running, so much for the better…

1. The idea that after more than a decade of long distance running, endurance should not be my main target in training: the endurance is already there, baked in. For the past month+, I’ve been doing more HIIT runs, less mileage, and some days not running at all if I feel awful. It’s a HUGE shift in mentality for me, but it’s working a treat!

2. More protein; more quality calories. I’m hitting protein hard after every workout - a protein shake, hard boiled egg, Greek yogurt or the like. It is shocking what a difference that’s made in my recovery and reduction in soft tissue pain! And adding that in is adding more calories that I really need, too.

3. Lift Heavy Stuff (only it’s not really “Stuff”). I hate strength training, so the advice to lift heavy for very few reps is actually a winner for me lol! More weight, less time? Done. I feel stronger, look leaner (not that that is what this is about at all, but it’s a nice side effect), and am running better.

In real life, here’s how these changes have played out recently:
My penultimate b2b2b training weekend for W&D went great!
My final b2b2b training weekend was a different story: hormones were out of whack, pain levels and fatigue were high, and I bailed at mile 9 of what was sopped to be a 12-miler. Told myself all week before W&D, “This is FINE: you’ve got 10 years of marathon and Dopey training built up, not to mention a gazillion halfs - you do not need those extra miles to be ready.”
W&D weekend… I was exhausted from lack of sleep (thanks noisy neighbors), under-nourished thanks to dental work and an inability to chew properly, and frankly not into it at all… but I finished all 3 races, and even ran hard the second half of the half, with what felt like minimal effort! I still battled the chronic pain I’ve had for several years now, but it was tolerable - and I recovered quickly.

So I’m hesitant to say I’M BACK, BAYBEE!!!, but I’m… a bit more hopeful than I was a couple months ago? I still have no interest in ever agin doing a marathon, and swore after W&D no more 3 days of racing in a row, but I’m feeling reasonably confident I can still keep doing halfs if I want to. That’s a pretty big shift from where I was mentally not so long ago!

Now if I can just find shoes that don’t torture me…

 

[DisneyParrothead]

Morning! Between Life and W&D, I haven’t had time to do much DISing lately, but I’m trying to catch up. Congrats to all who’ve toed the lines and smashed some goals recently!

I have an update to share - it could get stupidly long, but I’ll try to keep it brief. Ish.

I finally bought the book “Next Level” by Stacey Sims and Selena Yeager - basically a guide to dealing with the challenges (which is a REALLY nice way of putting it) of perimenopause and menopause as an aging female athlete. It’s been enormously eye-opening and helpful!

Consider this: my generation and beyond are the first to have benefited from Title IX - the first really large group of US women to have had wide access to sport is just now hitting the menopausal stage of life, which means there’s been precious little research into how peri/menopause impacts the athletic female body. We’re only just beginning to figure things out. Which is why it’s so incredibly hard to get good sports medical care with peri/menopause in mind.

Anyway, the book is chock full of wisdom, advice, very specific tips for supplements, training, and more. I highly recommend it! And I won’t attempt to regurgitate much of it here, but a couple things I learned have totally transformed my approach to training and running, so much for the better…

1. The idea that after more than a decade of long distance running, endurance should not be my main target in training: the endurance is already there, baked in. For the past month+, I’ve been doing more HIIT runs, less mileage, and some days not running at all if I feel awful. It’s a HUGE shift in mentality for me, but it’s working a treat!

2. More protein; more quality calories. I’m hitting protein hard after every workout - a protein shake, hard boiled egg, Greek yogurt or the like. It is shocking what a difference that’s made in my recovery and reduction in soft tissue pain! And adding that in is adding more calories that I really need, too.

3. Lift Heavy Stuff (only it’s not really “Stuff”). I hate strength training, so the advice to lift heavy for very few reps is actually a winner for me lol! More weight, less time? Done. I feel stronger, look leaner (not that that is what this is about at all, but it’s a nice side effect), and am running better.

In real life, here’s how these changes have played out recently:
My penultimate b2b2b training weekend for W&D went great!
My final b2b2b training weekend was a different story: hormones were out of whack, pain levels and fatigue were high, and I bailed at mile 9 of what was sopped to be a 12-miler. Told myself all week before W&D, “This is FINE: you’ve got 10 years of marathon and Dopey training built up, not to mention a gazillion halfs - you do not need those extra miles to be ready.”
W&D weekend… I was exhausted from lack of sleep (thanks noisy neighbors), under-nourished thanks to dental work and an inability to chew properly, and frankly not into it at all… but I finished all 3 races, and even ran hard the second half of the half, with what felt like minimal effort! I still battled the chronic pain I’ve had for several years now, but it was tolerable - and I recovered quickly.

So I’m hesitant to say I’M BACK, BAYBEE!!!, but I’m… a bit more hopeful than I was a couple months ago? I still have no interest in ever agin doing a marathon, and swore after W&D no more 3 days of racing in a row, but I’m feeling reasonably confident I can still keep doing halfs if I want to. That’s a pretty big shift from where I was mentally not so long ago!

Now if I can just find shoes that don’t torture me…

One of the things I'm curious about with more research is with Title IX and more women being active since childhood, what will that mean for things like osteoporosis? My grandmother and both of her older sisters all had it, and of course they grew up when social norms kept them from participating, or if they did, it was modified. My grandmother played basketball in high school and girls basketball was half court only.

My mom and my aunt have osteopenia, but with my mom's strength training, her bone density numbers aren't low, and in fact, they've gone up since she started prescription calcium. She's still in the osteopenia range, but her doctor is quite happy with the numbers.

I talked to my doctor when my mom was diagnosed, and she said everything I'm doing is fantastic, and she wanted me to make sure 50% of my calcium intake is from natural sources. Plus a vitamin with D3, which I've been on for years. I swapped out wine during the week for milk intake at dinner, and when I'm working remote, having milk with lunch too. Throw in yogurt and smoothies, I think I'm doing well on that front too.