You wish you could report people renting rooms 10 months out?

[McCrae]

So I know walking and such is a topic as well as renting at times. I happened to see people renting Christmas bookings over the past few weeks.

Do you wish you could report them and if they rented their points annually they would start to get hit with fees or restrictions?

Not sure how I feel but think its interesting but I also have it easier as we dont travel during a specific time.

What a horrible post, the sentiment behind this idea is mind blowing. Who on earth would want to consider reporting someone for renting points.

 

[sethschroeder]

What a horrible post, the sentiment behind this idea is mind blowing. Who on earth would want to consider reporting someone for renting points.

Someone purposely taking a room selection that is severely limited at 11 months for the sole purpose of renting it when the DVC bylaws were even created to avoid having business being able to own points with the sole purpose of renting them.

Thats a mind blowing post to bring up those walking a very thin line for what DVC expressly is trying to avoid?

Question: Do you believe a company should be able to own points for the simple purpose of renting those points with no further objective?

 

[Robbie Cottam]

Someone purposely taking a room selection that is severely limited at 11 months for the sole purpose of renting it when the DVC bylaws were even created to avoid having business being able to own points with the sole purpose of renting them.

Thats a mind blowing post to bring up those walking a very thin line for what DVC expressly is trying to avoid?

Question: Do you believe a company should be able to own points for the simple purpose of renting those points with no further objective?

Disney, has expressly stated that renting is PERSONAL USE.

Why are we still discussing this.

 

[SL6827]

I would like the possibilty of renting out some DVC points at some time, but with not being 100% sure the cost would be insurable, I can't take that chance.

 

[heynowirv]

I say it’s pretty bad right now…

View attachment 739287

From a Facebook group. One owner.

But Don that's only 17 rentals so that's not a commercial endeavor......Ya wanna bet?

 

[sethschroeder]

Disney, has expressly stated that renting is PERSONAL USE.

Why are we still discussing this.

Did I say something to the contrary?

Personal use by renting out some/all of your points on occasion vs running a business with buying contracts for the sole purpose of renting are two different things though.

 

[sndral]

What a horrible post, the sentiment behind this idea is mind blowing. Who on earth would want to consider reporting someone for renting points.

I don’t think individuals reporting would be very effective, & it’s not something I’d personally do, but it doesn’t offend me if others do so. For example I’ve lately become aware of social media ‘spreading the word’ of where to park your RV or van overnight w/out getting caught in my popular w/ tourists hometown which forbids overnight camping. If reporting caused some of the YouTuber/influencers to get caught & have to pay fines & thus to stop telling others where they can break the rules against overnight camping in my neighborhood (especially the ones suggesting they park next to the park I live across the street from) I’m good w/ that. Likewise, if reporting caused DVC to crack down on the egregious for profit renters & discouraged the practice, I’m ok w/ that.
I don’t think DVC really cares whether people are renting their points for profit or not or engaging in a profit making activity, IMO if DVC cared, they’d take more aggressive steps to curtail the practice.
If I ran DVC the first thing I’d do would be to have a check list as part of the online/phone reservation process w/ 3 choices, I am making this reservation: 1) for personal use; 2) as a gift to a family member/friend; 3) as a rental for which I have or will receive money or other consideration. Then I’d cross check the data by having any nonmember lead guest check a box when they did online/desk check in indicating whether the reservation was a gift or if they paid for it. Then I’d look at the data gathered from that information to see if there really was a pattern of abuse/misuse & if there was I’d take steps to address it.
I personally think 20 as the number is way too high, 10 or even 5 rentals per calendar year being the number that triggers scrutiny doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. Note I’m not advocating an outright ban of more than 10 or 5, rather anyone who reserves more than say 10 a year in non members names is presumed to be engaging in commercial use and must disprove that they are. The owner is notified & then sends copies of the written contracts DVC requires them to have which show that their proceeds do not exceed what they pay in MFs for all their points or whatever other metric DVC sets to distinguish personal use from commercial. If the owner gifted more than 10 stays, they just send written verification of that signed by the owner & the recipient.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

I don’t think individuals reporting would be very effective, & it’s not something I’d personally do, but it doesn’t offend me if others do so. For example I’ve lately become aware of social media ‘spreading the word’ of where to park your RV or van overnight w/out getting caught in my popular w/ tourists hometown which forbids overnight camping. If reporting caused some of the YouTuber/influencers to get caught & have to pay fines & thus to stop telling others where they can break the rules against overnight camping in my neighborhood (especially the ones suggesting they park next to the park I live across the street from) I’m good w/ that. Likewise, if reporting caused DVC to crack down on the egregious for profit renters & discouraged the practice, I’m ok w/ that.
I don’t think DVC really cares whether people are renting their points for profit or not or engaging in a profit making activity, IMO if DVC cared, they’d take more aggressive steps to curtail the practice.
If I ran DVC the first thing I’d do would be to have a check list as part of the online/phone reservation process w/ 3 choices, I am making this reservation: 1) for personal use; 2) as a gift to a family member/friend; 3) as a rental for which I have or will receive money or other consideration. Then I’d cross check the data by having any nonmember lead guest check a box when they did online/desk check in indicating whether the reservation was a gift or if they paid for it. Then I’d look at the data gathered from that information to see if there really was a pattern of abuse/misuse & if there was I’d take steps to address it.
I personally think 20 as the number is way too high, 10 or even 5 rentals per calendar year being the number that triggers scrutiny doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. Note I’m not advocating an outright ban of more than 10 or 5, rather anyone who reserves more than say 10 a year in non members names is presumed to be engaging in commercial use and must disprove that they are. The owner is notified & then sends copies of the written contracts DVC requires them to have which show that their proceeds do not exceed what they pay in MFs for all their points or whatever other metric DVC sets to distinguish personal use from commercial. If the owner gifted more than 10 stays, they just send written verification of that signed by the owner & the recipient.

Think, you would see the dues increase fifty cents or a buck a point for this level of DVC involvement.
And for what ?

If Disney we’re to implement a rule or process as you describe my rental contracts would state “ten dollars and other goods and valuable considerations“

Disney does not care if they did we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
‘Disney would put a stop to it.

Since Disney has remained mute the don’t see n issue ….

 

[sndral]

Think, you would see the dues increase fifty cents or a buck a point for this level of DVC involvement.
And for what ?

If Disney we’re to implement a rule or process as you describe my rental contracts would state “ten dollars and other goods and valuable considerations“

Disney does not care if they did we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
‘Disney would put a stop to it.

Since Disney has remained mute the don’t see n issue ….

I agree that at this point DVC isn’t bothered enough about the booming renting for profit market to aggressively try to shut it down- but I never say never w/ Disney, they do have a history of ignoring a common practice for years & then suddenly taking steps to shut something down which triggers a short lived uproar on fan sites, as change inevitably does, & then those who object get to work on figuring out work arounds such as the one you’ve hit upon, although I’d personally not go so far as to recommend someone intentionally include a fraudulent clause in a contract, likely because my contracts professor beat contract law into my brain many years ago & if I were renting points I’d want my documentary ducks to all line up in case the IRS ever took an interest in my financial affairs .
I don’t think dues which already pay for legal/accounting services spread over millions & millions of points would be significantly increased if DVC took a more proactive approach or set the rental max which triggered scrutiny at 10, but I’m not an accountant so .

 

[Robbie Cottam]

I agree that at this point DVC isn’t bothered enough about the booming renting for profit market to aggressively try to shut it down- but I never say never w/ Disney, they do have a history of ignoring a common practice for years & then suddenly taking steps to shut something down which triggers a short lived uproar on fan sites, as change inevitably does, & then those who object get to work on figuring out work arounds such as the one you’ve hit upon, although I’d personally not go so far as to recommend someone intentionally include a fraudulent clause in a contract, likely because my contracts professor beat contract law into my brain many years ago & if I were renting points I’d want my documentary ducks to all line up in case the IRS ever took an interest in my financial affairs .
I don’t think dues which already pay for legal/accounting services spread over millions & millions of points would be significantly increased if DVC took a more proactive approach or set the rental max which triggered scrutiny at 10, but I’m not an accountant so .

Read the first line of every deed DVD has ever issued. Unless we all paid 10 dollars for our contracts I think I’m on stable ground.

 

[bumbershoot]

Do you wish you could report them and if they rented their points annually they would start to get hit with fees or restrictions?

Nope.

I'm a firm believer in karma, and to be honest, am something of a karma gloater when it comes back to bite someone (we all have our demons).

AH, but the thing with karma is that it goes all ways. If someone is running into a problem, it could mean that they needed that bit of learning, for something they themselves had done. Karma doesn't see innocents. Or so say my son and his father, who are both Buddhist.

2) as a gift to a family member/friend; 3) as a rental for which I have or will receive money or other consideration.

So now we have to just gift our points to friends and family? We cannot be paid back by them?

 

[WilsonFlyer]

This one ought to throw a little gas on it (No need in wasting a perfectly good dumpster fire. LOL).

I may be late on this, so forgive me if it's already been posted. DVC owners own a deeded real estate interest in real property in FL. Doesn't have squat for didly to do with WDW other than the fact that's where it is. As is noted on here ALL the time: that's all it is. But that is exactly what it is.

I seriously doubt that even the arbitrary '20' limit is enforceable and suspect Disney legal knows that. What you guys are referring to as the 'commercial clause' is likely about as enforceable as no white after Labor Day. Since rentals are explicitly allowed under the POS, I seriously doubt that any limit could realistically be enforced at all, and true 'commercial' renters know this and that's why they keep 'getting away with it.'

DVD knows who the commercial renters are. I won't go down that rabbit hole out of respect, but I could name at least 10 without even thinking about it. Heck, they all have websites! Why doesn't DVD start with them? Plain and simple. They can't.

This whole discussion is moot.

(Edit to add: Lest we simply and conveniently neglect that DVC themselves are likely the largest 'commercial renter' of them all and they don't hide behind their point ownership nor the fact that they rent their points either. Try fighting another 'commercial renter' in court when you are the worst offender of them all.)

 

[DonMacGregor]

AH, but the thing with karma is that it goes all ways. If someone is running into a problem, it could mean that they needed that bit of learning, for something they themselves had done. Karma doesn't see innocents. Or so say my son and his father, who are both Buddhist.

As Jesus said in the Good Book: "Live by the sword, die by the sword".

 

[WilsonFlyer]

As Jesus said in the Good Book: "Live by the sword, die by the sword".

Or as most people seem to practice these days, do unto others so long as you don't do it unto me.

 

[Sandisw]

Someone purposely taking a room selection that is severely limited at 11 months for the sole purpose of renting it when the DVC bylaws were even created to avoid having business being able to own points with the sole purpose of renting them.

Thats a mind blowing post to bring up those walking a very thin line for what DVC expressly is trying to avoid?

Question: Do you believe a company should be able to own points for the simple purpose of renting those points with no further objective?

A company is not an individual so that could very well trigger the “commercial purposes” clause.

But, for everyone else, we are expressly allowed to rent our points out and you can’t tell someone you can only rent certain rooms, certain dates, etc.

Having a few rentals every year, even popular ones, would in no way violate the contract. Nothing states that we must have a “reason” or “hardship” to rent.

So, in the end, it doesn’t matter what an owner books or rents as long as their membership is not deemed as being used for commercial purposes.

 

[DonMacGregor]

I guess we've discovered where John Laws and the general power of competence collides with deontology and Immanuel Kant...

 

[Robbie Cottam]

If we want to get utilitarian and all, I would say renting points at the busiest time of year does the most good….

 

[lowlight]

Someone purposely taking a room selection that is severely limited at 11 months for the sole purpose of renting it when the DVC bylaws were even created to avoid having business being able to own points with the sole purpose of renting them.

Thats a mind blowing post to bring up those walking a very thin line for what DVC expressly is trying to avoid?

Question: Do you believe a company should be able to own points for the simple purpose of renting those points with no further objective?

It's like you forgot you were on Disboards for a moment. There are people here who walk reservations for half a year like it's their second job, there will be no epiphanies in regards to ethics.

 

[DonMacGregor]

It's like you forgot you were on Disboards for a moment. There are people here who walk reservations for half a year like it's their second job, there will be no epiphanies in regards to ethics.

I have a very good friend, BA Notre Dame, MA Duke (leadership and ethics), retired Marine Corps officer (colonel, Harrier pilot and instructor), and taught ethics at Duke and UNC. He is a leadership, professional culture, and ethics coach and author. He could do his doctoral thesis on this thread.

 

[lowlight]

I don't really rent out points, just because I don't think it's good mathematically for me, but it's explicitly allowed in all the documents. I don't even see what's "at-risk." DVC can't get rid of it. They could put in some hoops and make it hard, but they haven't done much of that.

Point rental is part of what keeps the value of your contract high. There is a whole professional class of people who buy these and rent it out. They don't really care what nonsense we are talking.

This debate always goes the same way. It's the same as the walking reservations debate, and they entangle themselves together frequently. It likely harms membership as a whole to allow the practice, but it's impossible/illegal/illogical to attempt to curtail it. Someone is going to ask how it harms membership, so I'll preempt you. Walking reservations and booking hard to get holiday reservations with the sole intention of resale puts stress on a system that it wasn't designed for. It's not an issue when a few people do it, but when it becomes as commonplace as it is right now, it breaks the system down. It's like putting your kid on your shoulder at fireworks time. It isn't against any rule, and if only a few people do it, only the few behind them will be affected. If everyone did it, it'd really suck for the short people. All I see is people arguing "it's allowed". That's never been a good excuse for anything.