NEW VGF Building

[KAT4DISNEY]

Riviera Deluxe Standard View Studio is $751.72 on an average night this year through Disney including tax, and 19.41 points on average, a nightly value of $38.74 per point vs paying cash.

Grand Floridian Deluxe Standard View Studio is $854.56 on an average night this year through Disney including tax, and 21.57 points on average, a nightly value of $39.61, or a 2% better value per point than Riviera.

So someone explain to me why they think Disney will charge a 25% premium to provide a 2% value?

I can't because I don't think they will and it's not what they've historically done They've never calculated things out like that. Instead they price the new resort somewhere in the same range (or exactly the same) as whatever else is current that they are selling. Recent new resorts have even gotten a greater discount for an initial offering to get enthusiasm built up. So if they do charge a hefty premium over their other current resorts it would be a first.

To add - it was similar thoughts before VGF was first offered and it didn't happen. They made the increase thru the point charts, not the price per point.

 

[davidl81]

I can't because I don't think they will and it's not what they've historically done They've never calculated things out like that. Instead they price the new resort somewhere in the same range (or exactly the same) as whatever else is current that they are selling. Recent new resorts have even gotten a greater discount for an initial offering to get enthusiasm built up. So if they do charge a hefty premium over their other current resorts it would be a first.

To add - it was similar thoughts before VGF was first offered and it didn't happen. The made the increase thru the point charts, not the price per point.

This is the correct answer IMO. DVC has never opened a new resort at a significant premium to the other resorts it is selling at the same time. The adjustments are always in the point chart. I strongly believe VGF will go on sale for right around the same price as RIV (now whatever that price is when VGF2 goes live is unknown). Would not shock me though if they made the new studios 10% more in points than the older VGF studios. Have some sales pitch about how they are larger etc. You can back into the $220ish price per point that way while still offering the points at $200ish.

And you can still sell RIV versus this fairly easily if you are a guide. Your pitch for RIV is it has lower point requirements per night (focus on tower studios), and lower on the larger rooms as well. You can also sell RIV on the fact that 1-2BR will be very hard to get now for VGF owners, but if you buy RIV you can get these larger rooms no issues. Then its really a matter of is the buyer and Epcot food and wine type of buyer, or a MK buyer.

 

[supersnoop]

What you have to remember when considering the price is that 90% or more of the people who buy VGF2 will have never known a lower price. DVD will be marketing to new buyers and showing them what a great deal VGF2 is at $255. Nobody is going to walk away be "it used to be cheaper."

 

[Salf777]

Fascinating....

But it's an interesting note of WHY this is happening.

They have been dumping off GFV rooms at 55% off on Hotwire. With strong demand elsewhere at WDW, they get very low demand at Grand Floridian.
Simple enough reason: They are over-charging for Grand Floridian.

But they don't want to cut the prices -- They do have plenty of people willing to spend $800 per night at Grand Floridian, but not nearly enough to fill the rooms.

So the solution? Cut the number of cash rooms.... Sell them to DVC so they are "always occupied"..

So yes, if you buy into the GFV expansion as DVC, you are getting "40% off rack rates".... though if there was no DVC, you'd be able to get the rooms at 55% off rack rate on hotwire!

can you help me out where do you find these rates on Hotwire? I just tried looking and it gave me no Grand Floridan? Am I doing something wrong? I have never used Hotwire before so I’m quite sure I am. I entered Grand Floridan and it doesn’t even tell me the name of the hotels they are showing. If they are that much cheaper I would like to book a stay there

 

[sethschroeder]

can you help me out where do you find these rates on Hotwire? I just tried looking and it gave me no Grand Floridan? Am I doing something wrong? I have never used Hotwire before so I’m quite sure I am. I entered Grand Floridan and it doesn’t even tell me the name of the hotels they are showing. If they are that much cheaper I would like to book a stay there

It's going to be hidden rates. There are forums about how to find specific hotels.

So you will want to go to one of those sites. It's likely something like Bay Lake area and 5* or something.

 

[corgi_monster]

I was thinking about buying OKW or SSR direct next February since I have a March use year. This changes things. If I were to buy VGF2 next February, is there any hope that I would receive March 2021 points plus the courtesy bank? I'm guessing not since GFV2 didn't exist in March 2021, but I'd love to be wrong!

 

[CastAStone]

can you help me out where do you find these rates on Hotwire? I just tried looking and it gave me no Grand Floridan? Am I doing something wrong? I have never used Hotwire before so I’m quite sure I am. I entered Grand Floridan and it doesn’t even tell me the name of the hotels they are showing. If they are that much cheaper I would like to book a stay there

It's going to be hidden rates. There are forums about how to find specific hotels.

So you will want to go to one of those sites. It's likely something like Bay Lake area and 5* or something.

Here’s your thread. Touringplans also publishes blog posts about it every month on the free part of their website.

I've gotten great deals on mods for this weekend - one by booking about two weeks ago and one by booking last night. Thought I could start an FAQ/tips for opaque booking sites since the on-site Disney hotels are now appearing. (Is this allowed?)

If there's interest, and others want to post their wins, I can update the first post with more tips, FAQ and wins.

BE AWARE THAT GETTING A SPECIFIC HOTEL THROUGH AN OPAQUE BOOKING IS NEVER GUARANTEED. Using available clues, you can narrow it down and have a "good bet" at success. However, until you hit the purchase button and get your confirmation with hotel name, there is no way to know for sure. Opaque booking includes inherent risk and if you are risk averse it is best for you to book through traditional routes.

The below is based on my experiences & research, but if others have different experiences I'd love to hear them!

TIPS

Priceline

The on-site hotels will be in the areas "Walt Disney World - Bonnet Creek" and "Walt Disney World - Disney Springs." If it is outside these areas, it is (probably?) not an on-site hotel.

The hotel will not have a resort fee. (Resort fees are common in Orlando. You will see it listed as "Hotel fee, $xx.xx (Due at hotel)."

The amenities will typically I nclude "free parking," which is an uncommon amenity in Orlando.

Hotwire

The on-site hotels are in areas "Walt Disney World - Bonnet Creek" and "Disney Springs."

The hotel will not have a resort fee. (Resort fees are common in Orlando. After you click on the hotel, you will see a box with a big red button that says "Book Now." If the hotel has a resort fee, there will be small grey print under this box that says, "This hotel charges guests a resort fee of USDxx.xx per room per night."

The dead giveaway amenity is "airport shuttle." Because WDW is so far away from MCO, few hotels in the key zones have airport shuttles. (On-site hotels, of course, have DME.)

Sample hotel sets - Priceline

Disney's Port Orleans Resort - French Quarter
Area: Walt Disney World - Disney Springs
3.5*
Listed amenities: Free parking, indoor or outdoor pool, restaurant

(Possible amenities: Free Internet (in room,) Free Parking, Outdoor Pool, Restaurant)

Caribbean Beach Resort
Area: Walt Disney World - Bonnet Creek
3*
Listed amenities: Free parking, free internet (in room,) swimming pool

(Possible amenities: Free Internet (in room,) Free Parking, Outdoor Pool, Restaurant)

 

[Sandisw]

I was just reading something on a DVC news website. (Don't know if I am allowed to post a link to it.)

That website notes that concurrently active DVC resorts generally have been sold at the same price per point, with various discounts and incentives used to balance sales between resorts.

Meanwhile, Disney really has been selling the Riviera as an upscale resort with Skyliner access to two theme parks.

With the above in mind, I'm thinking VGF will open at the same price as RIV.

Just post the link and if it is blocked, then it should not be discussed.

 

[davidl81]

What you have to remember when considering the price is that 90% or more of the people who buy VGF2 will have never known a lower price. DVD will be marketing to new buyers and showing them what a great deal VGF2 is at $255. Nobody is going to walk away be "it used to be cheaper."

But these will be selling at the same time as RIV. So if RIV is $200, yet VGF is $255 a guide has to say "Well yeah RIV is a deluxe, but VGF is a super deluxe!" They won't want to devalue the resort that they will have significantly more points left to sell. It is much easier to sell VGF and RIV at basically the same price per point, but let the point chart do the work on increases.

 

[havoc315]

It's going to be hidden rates. There are forums about how to find specific hotels.

So you will want to go to one of those sites. It's likely something like Bay Lake area and 5* or something.

Correct. I'm not currently seeing Grand Floridian. But just a couple weeks ago, I was looking for my August trip dates, and Grand Floridian was there at about 55% off.

And it was quite obvious as well: They had a a "regular" listing for Grand Floridian at $783 per night (or something like that). Rated 4.6 stars (or something like that).
Then they had a "hidden" listing for a hotel with the exact same amenities, same 4.6 start rating, listed as 55% off the "regular $784" (off by $1) rate.

 

[Sandisw]

The challenge for me here is that this then calls into question the legality of the Riviera restrictions, which honestly I've never questioned much before. Blue card benefits are paid for by the Developer's marketing budget and I acknowledge they can strip that away as they choose and have since 2011.

When speaking to the trading restrictions however, that is covered by a portion of membership dues. By function of joining the existing Association (which Disney is stating Big Pines will do) Big Pines will pay the same dues as every other VGF owner, and trading into the exchange system is paid for by all owners/members of the Association by way of a portion of dues paid to the BVTC. Per the POS:


TL;DR
The Association will act on the part of all Club Members at the Grand Floridian. Club Members are defined as:


So by joining the Association, Big Pines is bound by the terms of every other VGF owner, and as such, the terms every other VGF owner enters into an agreement for exchange into the BVTC.

It's important to note that:


So the fee paid to BVTC is based only on the number of owners (Club Members) of the Association. Presently, all owners, white or blue, are treated equally by the Association, as such it maintains its O14 status.

If the Developer is going to separate out Big Pine points so as to be able to restrict white card bookings from SSR resale, they need to create a new Association entirely (a la CCV). Otherwise, Disney is just riding on selling the "new VGF" on the benefit of having more than just studios (Buy VGF today and stay in studios, 1BRs, 2BRs, and GVs!).

All of this done at the expense to current owners by creating a class of VGF owners who can only book at VGF at the risk of locking themselves out should VGF book up all those cheap studios that they only bought enough points for outside of 11-7 month window.

The trading restrictions to me are dubious. By taking the 2019 resale restrictions on the road to an existing property, Disney will be putting the trading issues and how BVTC is paid for under a big spotlight. I'm not convinced that they will want that kind of attention.

I agree with all of this. My only comment is that when we talk about blue card vs white cafe in terms of points and restrictions for use, it can be confusing.

The blue card vs white card has to do with membership perks only. It’s the way points are purchased that impacts restrictions. I say this because someone could add on 75 points direct at SSR, still be a white card holder, but now owns 75 completely unrestricted points to book everything.

I just don’t see anything that will allow them to all of a sudden make a change for the new points sold to be restricted from use on the resale market, other than what is currently in place, given it being the same association.

 

[Bjaiken77]

I get Disney is always after making money, but good policy is simple, clear, and transparent. All these different layers of membership and restrictions is bad for the brand, in my opinion. Disney started justifying RIV as a new phase of DVC with resale restrictions. Then, they go back and sell a resort that’s 6-7 years old and probably has no resale restrictions.

And what about the people who just added on VGF at $255/point? They had the expectation that it was a sold out resort with points only becoming available occasionally as they are bought back. Then, you go and introduce millions of points back into the resort at what likely will be a discounted price.

This does nothing but confuse people and engender distrust. Again, that’s not good, and it makes me not trust a policy when it’s explained to me, as it’s foundation appears to be ever shifting and baseless.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

This. The most overlooked aspect of many sales discussions is the amount of influence the DVC sales Guide can exert. Barring some late change, May 2021 sales are going to show a surprisingly high percent of SSR and OKW direct sales. It's probably not accurate to twist that into "see, people would rather have OKW and SSR than Riviera due to resale restrictions!" Many times it just comes down to what DVC decides it wants to sell.

That said, I don't see a $255 VGF price scaling-up to 100k points per month. The current rate is a function of the scarcity of points + DVC's overall desire to sell Riviera to the big spenders. Nor do I think VGF is a property that demands a 30% premium over Riviera.

But it will be interesting to see how they approach the two resorts.

There will have to be some way to distinguish studios in the DVC building and studios in the Pine Creek building ( why can’t I remember this name?). Anyway I prefer to stay in the VGF DVC building. I do not want all of these studios to be lumped into one booking category, then have to request the original DVC building. I want to KNOW I will be placed there.

 

[stwaldman]

There will have to be some way to distinguish studios in the DVC building and studios in the Pine Creek building ( why can’t I remember this name?). Anyway I prefer to stay in the VGF DVC building. I do not want all of these studios to be lumped into one booking category, then have to request the original DVC building. I want to KNOW I will be placed there.

I see no reason they can't do this. Even if point charts end up being the same (big if), there's no reason you can't change the label like the walk in shower studios at CCV. Heck even if they get it wrong, it's an easy fix if there is enough uproar.

 

[macman123]

There will have to be some way to distinguish studios in the DVC building and studios in the Pine Creek building ( why can’t I remember this name?). Anyway I prefer to stay in the VGF DVC building. I do not want all of these studios to be lumped into one booking category, then have to request the original DVC building. I want to KNOW I will be placed there.

I suspect it will be like booking Jambo House and Kidani Village. You have a choice which building

 

[Nabas]

There will have to be some way to distinguish studios in the DVC building and studios in the Pine Creek building ( why can’t I remember this name?).

The best guess right now is that these will be treated the same as Jambo House and Kidani Village.

DVC members at those two resorts are able to book rooms in either building at 11 months.

I'm more interested in the name change.

The Villas at Wilderness Lodge became Boulder Ridge Villas.

I want to know what they are going to rename the Villas at the Grand Floridian to.

 

[macman123]

I want to know what they are going to rename the Villas at the Grand Floridian to.

I think you will have

- Villas at Grand Floridian (VGF1)
- Grand Floridian Villas (VGF2)

 

[Sandisw]

The best guess right now is that these will be treated the same as Jambo House and Kidani Village.

DVC members at those two resorts are able to book rooms in either building at 11 months.

I'm more interested in the name change.

The Villas at Wilderness Lodge became Boulder Ridge Villas.

I want to know what they are going to rename the Villas at the Grand Floridian to.

Actually, the Villas at Wilderness Lodge became Boulder Ridge Villas. The rooms converted in the main building were always Copper Creek Villas from the start as they were a new resort.

I don’t think we will see a name change, but rather booking of Villlas at the Grand Floridian and then Villas at the Grand Floridian - Big Pine Key.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

I get Disney is always after making money, but good policy is simple, clear, and transparent. All these different layers of membership and restrictions is bad for the brand, in my opinion. Disney started justifying RIV as a new phase of DVC with resale restrictions. Then, they go back and sell a resort that’s 6-7 years old and probably has no resale restrictions.

And what about the people who just added on VGF at $255/point? They had the expectation that it was a sold out resort with points only becoming available occasionally as they are bought back. Then, you go and introduce millions of points back into the resort at what likely will be a discounted price.

This does nothing but confuse people and engender distrust. Again, that’s not good, and it makes me not trust a policy when it’s explained to me, as it’s foundation appears to be ever shifting and baseless.

I just purchased at $255/pt. the last week of April. It was for 60 points. I am not upset with this new development as I expect any discounts will be for point amounts more than my 60 points.

 

[OKW Lover]

Anyway I prefer to stay in the VGF DVC building. I do not want all of these studios to be lumped into one booking category, then have to request the original DVC building. I want to KNOW I will be placed there.

They do this at OKW. Certain buildings are designated HH buildings and are a separate booking category, but with the same point requirements.