Enthusiastic about Genie+ touring

[havoc315]

But you seem oblivious to the fact that what you describe makes for a downgrade in experience for anyone who can't afford those options. Or even for those who can afford the other options, but don't think it's a good value for what it costs.

Of course people can bite the bullet and use standby. But the people who previously used "free" fastpass and are now relegated to this are just never going to agree with you that this is a great system. It's a clear downgrade.

If you're a person who can 1) afford the add on and 2) feel like you're getting value for it, then you're going to love it. Especially if a bunch of those $3K visitors stop going and the top tier FPs are even easier for you to get on demand.

Just be honest and admit there are valid reasons for some not to be excited about this.

We get it. You can afford it. And you are excited about it. You're one of the winners in this. Congratulations. Just let others feel how they feel about it. You don't need to show them the light on why they are going to have a great time standing in "free" standby lines all day.

I already admitted cost is a very valid reason not to be excited. It’s just about the only significant reason.

But complaining about the cost is a bit useless to me. Anyone who can’t afford park hoppers has a downgraded experience compared to someone who can afford it. Anyone who can’t afford signature meals has a downgraded experience compared to someone who can afford them. Anyone who can’t afford VIP tours, deluxe accommodations, etc.


And taken to the most significant — anyone who simply can’t afford a Disney vacation at all.

The only solution to your complaint would be to charge $1 for park tickets, $1 for rooms at the Grand Floridian, $1 for dinner at Victoria & Albert’s.
Give unlimited FPs to everyone for ever ride. So that when you get the FP, you still need to wait 2 hours.

Yes, higher cost sucks. Very legitimate complaint. But it’s also how the world works. Bigger budget buys more. That’s not exactly new.

 

[Miffy]

G+, if works as designed, won’t be a constant refresh model. Your FP return times should typically be within 60-120 minutes, quite predictably. Even shorter during low crowds / less popular attractions. Possibly a bit longer for some popular rides during high crowds.

Can I ask why you think this? It seems to me that popular attractions could sell out early in the day and there would be no availability for them by noon, at the latest. What I mean is that people would use G+ to book one attraction on their must-do list and then use standby and regular Genie for the rest.

So that, for example, if MMRR is on G+ (and not IAS), I can see that being booked solid for the day by 7:15 a.m.

Or do you have some inside info that there will be timed releases of G+ throughout the day? If that's how it would be done, then perhaps there will be sorta continuous availability.

Right now my intended strategy for our December trip--which trip may or may not happen, depending--is to RD everything I really want to ride, get VQs for RotR and Rat and if not available then paying IAS for them and paying IAS for FoP, which is my have-to-do attraction.

The only parks I might use G+ in are DAK and DHS, but only if I can use G+ multiple times for the same ride in each park. It seems useless (to me) at Epcot and MK, since I'd be RDing.

Thanks for your insights. I read your initial post carefully and it seems pretty idealized, although sometimes one does have an idealized day at WDW.

ETA: BTW, I've never had a signature meal at WDW and don't consider it a downgrade at all. I could probably afford it if that's what I wanted, but in fact it doesn't interest me at all. Likewise, some people have no interest in park hopping--that doesn't make not having a parkhopper a downgraded experience for them. It's just a different experience.

 

[cakebaker]

No interest in sitting on my phone for 20 minutes constantly hitting refresh in the hopes that the right timed FP popped up...

Not wanting to do something doesn't mean it doesn't work. I didn't want to do it either, but it did work. I do agree that they won't sell out as quickly as some think they will, but only time will tell on that one.

 

[Turksmom]

But complaining about the cost is a bit useless to me. Anyone who can’t afford park hoppers has a downgraded experience compared to someone who can afford it. Anyone who can’t afford signature meals has a downgraded experience compared to someone who can afford them. Anyone who can’t afford VIP tours, deluxe accommodations, etc.

The difference is that those things are upgrades. No longer having a free fast pass type experience is a downgrade from what was previously available

 

[btuftee]

No help would change it.
Example— last FP+ trip to Epcot, Pre-pandemic.
Got a 2pm to Soarin for a party of 7
Also got Mission Space and Spaceship Earth.

So 1 good FP. The other 2 attractions had 5 minute lines, didn’t really need the FPs.
After using all 3 FPs, I refreshed the app about 10 times over the next hour. Wasn’t able to get Frozen or Test Track. So after an hour of trying, everyone decided to call it a day.

similarly, went to Animal Kingdom. There were no FOP fps in advance of our day — I booked 61 days in advance. None available. Checked about once a week, never opened up.
On the actual day —
We had FPs for 9, 10, and 11. Our plan was to stay in the park till noon.
we had FPs for safari, Navi and dinosaur. (safari and dinosaur were both walk-ons even if we didn’t have FPs at those moments)
After using the last FP at 11, we refreshed the app 5-10 times during our last hour, FOP never opened up in that hour.

This is honestly a pretty typical situation under FP+, driven by the lower number of "E-ticket" rides at parks other than MK. You could only get one of the Tier 1 choices, and good luck getting a FP+ for anything other than a "D" or "C" ticket ride once your initial 3 FP+ are used up around noon. Back before FP+, the headliner attractions would usually run out of FP by early afternoon, but at least there was some advantage to being in the park early. Even on a busy day, if you got to Epcot right before park open (not front-of-the-line rope drop), you could head straight to Test Track, grab a fastpass, hop in the standby line and ride once (maybe 20 minute wait), then walk to Soarin', ride it on standby (might be a 30 minute wait by then), then walk back to Test Track to use your FP (and remember, under FP you could always use a late FP after its official window expired). Then, you'd check the Touring Plan app to see what the FP return window was for Soarin' or just eyeball it at Test Track and decide what to do next. My sincere hope is that with Genie+, we get back to something like that pre-2013 environment.

At AK, I'm a little surprised you couldn't get a FP+ at 61 days out, for FOP but that's another frustration about FP+. Every single person with a theme park ticket got a shot at booking FOP on any given day, included with your ticket. I presume FOP will be one of the IA$ selections at AK, so now you'll have to pay a little extra for your Lightning Lane spot, but you don't have to pay the $15 for G+ if you don't want to. What this means is that someone who is casual about FOP (yours truly), I would have selected it under FP+, but there is no way I'll pay for it now. I probably won't ride it unless the standby line is short, and I'm fine with that. There are bound to be others in that same situation, which means the people who really care about riding FOP will have a much better chance to grab one.

For what it's worth, I never had any luck getting a "valuable" 4th FP+ at any park other than MK (save one day at DHS where I got a single FP+ for Tower of Terror, which was fine since I was the only one who wanted to ride it!). At MK, I could usually get FP+ for things that didn't have much of a wait, but it did usually save 5-10 minutes here and there (things like Dumbo, Little Mermaid, Pooh).

 

[Tyler's Dad]

Can I ask why you think this? It seems to me that popular attractions could sell out early in the day and there would be no availability for them by noon, at the latest. What I mean is that people would use G+ to book one attraction on their must-do list and then use standby and regular Genie for the rest.

So that, for example, if MMRR is on G+ (and not IAS), I can see that being booked solid for the day by 7:15 a.m.

Or do you have some inside info that there will be timed releases of G+ throughout the day? If that's how it would be done, then perhaps there will be sorta continuous availability.

Right now my intended strategy for our December trip--which trip may or may not happen, depending--is to RD everything I really want to ride, get VQs for RotR and Rat and if not available then paying IAS for them and paying IAS for FoP, which is my have-to-do attraction.

The only parks I might use G+ in are DAK and DHS, but only if I can use G+ multiple times for the same ride in each park. It seems useless (to me) at Epcot and MK, since I'd be RDing.

Thanks for your insights. I read your initial post carefully and it seems pretty idealized, although sometimes one does have an idealized day at WDW.

ETA: BTW, I've never had a signature meal at WDW and don't consider it a downgrade at all. I could probably afford it if that's what I wanted, but in fact it doesn't interest me at all. Likewise, some people have no interest in park hopping--that doesn't make not having a parkhopper a downgraded experience for them. It's just a different experience.

I can't guarantee you anything, but I have used MaxPass a lot and headline rides do not run out of fastpasses that early in the day. Usually, they have them well into the afternoon at least and that is when I go at Christmas or over the Summer.

As a matter of fact, by paying for Genie+, it should scare people away from that. Why would anyone want to pay for a service to hold one pass for one ride all day and night? The way to it tends to work, is that there is about a 4 or 5 hour threshold that people tend to use as when they will take a pass for a ride. Any more than that out and people tend to stay away and use it for something else. This will especially be the case if Disney does not institute a 90 or 120 grace period where you can get another pass if your other pass is too far out.

 

[Disneylover99]

I already admitted cost is a very valid reason not to be excited. It’s just about the only significant reason.

But complaining about the cost is a bit useless to me. Anyone who can’t afford park hoppers has a downgraded experience compared to someone who can afford it. Anyone who can’t afford signature meals has a downgraded experience compared to someone who can afford them. Anyone who can’t afford VIP tours, deluxe accommodations, etc.


And taken to the most significant — anyone who simply can’t afford a Disney vacation at all.

The only solution to your complaint would be to charge $1 for park tickets, $1 for rooms at the Grand Floridian, $1 for dinner at Victoria & Albert’s.
Give unlimited FPs to everyone for ever ride. So that when you get the FP, you still need to wait 2 hours.

Yes, higher cost sucks. Very legitimate complaint. But it’s also how the world works. Bigger budget buys more. That’s not exactly new.

I can afford all these things. I've had park hoppers, eaten signature dining, stayed deluxe many times, but I'm just as happy (sometimes happier actually) going to one park per day and eating counter service from Pop. In your examples, you make the assumption that not buying add-on's or upgrading, results in an inferior experience. That's simply not true for everyone. People have different preferences.

But choosing not to buy Genie+/LL will result in a downgraded experience for people in standby who previously had fp for free.

 

[havoc315]

I can afford all these things. I've had park hoppers, eaten signature dining, stayed deluxe many times, but I'm just as happy (sometimes happier actually) going to one park per day and eating counter service from Pop. In your examples, you make the assumption that not buying add-on's or upgrading, results in an inferior experience. That's simply not true for everyone. People have different preferences.

But choosing not to buy Genie+/LL will result in a downgraded experience for people in standby who previously had fp for free.

No. Because as you said —you May be just as happy eating counter service as a signature meal.
And someone else may be just as happy doing a LL attraction at rope drop. Or just as happy getting a free boarding group. Or just as happy doing the attraction during extended hours. Or just as happy to spend a few more minutes in the queue. (FP sometimes skipped interesting queue elements).

Yes — spending more gives you more options.

If you have a meal budget if $200 per person, you have more options than someone with a $15 budget.
The $200 budget can choose between the signature meal or a QS sandwich or anything in between. The lower the budget, the fewer options you get. That’s how it works.

By your logic, VIP tours should be free. Because people who don’t buy a VIP tour have a lesser experience than those that can buy it.

 

[havoc315]

This is honestly a pretty typical situation under FP+, driven by the lower number of "E-ticket" rides at parks other than MK. You could only get one of the Tier 1 choices, and good luck getting a FP+ for anything other than a "D" or "C" ticket ride once your initial 3 FP+ are used up around noon. Back before FP+, the headliner attractions would usually run out of FP by early afternoon, but at least there was some advantage to being in the park early. Even on a busy day, if you got to Epcot right before park open (not front-of-the-line rope drop), you could head straight to Test Track, grab a fastpass, hop in the standby line and ride once (maybe 20 minute wait), then walk to Soarin', ride it on standby (might be a 30 minute wait by then), then walk back to Test Track to use your FP (and remember, under FP you could always use a late FP after its official window expired). Then, you'd check the Touring Plan app to see what the FP return window was for Soarin' or just eyeball it at Test Track and decide what to do next. My sincere hope is that with Genie+, we get back to something like that pre-2013 environment.

At AK, I'm a little surprised you couldn't get a FP+ at 61 days out, for FOP but that's another frustration about FP+. Every single person with a theme park ticket got a shot at booking FOP on any given day, included with your ticket. I presume FOP will be one of the IA$ selections at AK, so now you'll have to pay a little extra for your Lightning Lane spot, but you don't have to pay the $15 for G+ if you don't want to. What this means is that someone who is casual about FOP (yours truly), I would have selected it under FP+, but there is no way I'll pay for it now. I probably won't ride it unless the standby line is short, and I'm fine with that. There are bound to be others in that same situation, which means the people who really care about riding FOP will have a much better chance to grab one.

For what it's worth, I never had any luck getting a "valuable" 4th FP+ at any park other than MK (save one day at DHS where I got a single FP+ for Tower of Terror, which was fine since I was the only one who wanted to ride it!). At MK, I could usually get FP+ for things that didn't have much of a wait, but it did usually save 5-10 minutes here and there (things like Dumbo, Little Mermaid, Pooh).

That sums up my experience. Typically MK wasn’t a problem but the other 3 parks were very limited.

 

[havoc315]

The difference is that those things are upgrades. No longer having a free fast pass type experience is a downgrade from what was previously available

Yes, things change. You can view it as an upgrade compared to your 1996 trip. Or a downgrade compared to your 2017 trip. Or an upgrade compared to your 2020 trip (when no FPs were available) during covid.

Just like entitlements in the dining plan have constantly changed, some things removed, some added.

I’ll say FP+ was a major downgrade for me, compared to regular FP. So I’m viewing this change as a significant upgrade.

 

[igrsod]

There are still so many unknowns about how his will work in practice, how many people will purchase it, how it will or will not effect wait times etc., for me to get excited about this. My initial reaction is to shake my head at a bad decision for Disney yet again... diminishing the magic for those staying onsite again... death by a thousand cuts.
Time will tell, if it works well, and doesn't add to wait times for the average guest, I'm ok with it.
Initially we aren't thinking we will need to purchase Genie+ in order to enjoy our vacation, and won't be adding this cost to our trips. The only park we think we will need it in is HS. Epcot and MK can be done with AH events or EMH for Deluxe stays. AK could be an AH event, but in reality the things we actually love to do there won't require Genie+. We will wait for the few rides we do there and continue seeing the animals, eating the food and seeing the shows.

 

[Disneylover99]

No. Because as you said —you May be just as happy eating counter service as a signature meal.
And someone else may be just as happy doing a LL attraction at rope drop. Or just as happy getting a free boarding group. Or just as happy doing the attraction during extended hours. Or just as happy to spend a few more minutes in the queue. (FP sometimes skipped interesting queue elements).

I don't think anyone wants to wait exclusively in standby lines all day while others ride quickly. That's the bottom line of what we're talking about.

By your logic, VIP tours should be free. Because people who don’t buy a VIP tour have a lesser experience than those that can buy it.

What? If that's what you got out of what I said, I don't think you get my logic at all. Besides, VIP tours have never been free.

 

[Eastern]

I don't like paying for FPs after I have paid lots of money already for a park ticket.

 

[havoc315]

Can I ask why you think this? It seems to me that popular attractions could sell out early in the day and there would be no availability for them by noon, at the latest. What I mean is that people would use G+ to book one attraction on their must-do list and then use standby and regular Genie for the rest.

My answer is based on experience with FP, MaxPass and basic math.

For most rides, in most crowd levels, there will be plenty of availability through the day.

I used to get a 8pm Soarin FP return time at 7pm. Get a 1pm Splash Mountain FP at 12:20.

There were rare instances where you couldn’t get a return time within 1-2 hours. (Back then, TSM was an exception.. FPs ran out fast).

In DL, with MaxPass, the passes last all day, usually within an hour.

If you really are only able to get 1 attraction with G+… then it’s not worth $15. And nobody will buy it. And if very few people buy it, then there will be availability for lots of passes.

So that, for example, if MMRR is on G+ (and not IAS), I can see that being booked solid for the day by 7:15 a.m.

Perfect example. There are about 24,000 slots for MMRR daily. About 18,000-20,000 of those are reserved for FP/G+. Average attendance at DHS is 30,000… not everyone will buy G+.
So if 20,000 people buy G+… they ALL wake up at 7am, they ALL book MMRR… then it will be booked solid all day.

But… that means Smuggler’s Run, TSM, TOT, RNR, Star Tours, Saucers, etc — will be completely totally wide open. Not a single G+ reservation for Smuggler’s run.

On the other hand — assume G+ reservations get spread out over multiple rides — that would keep every ride open and available through the late evening.

 

[havoc315]

I don't think anyone wants to wait exclusively in standby lines all day while others ride quickly. That's the bottom line of what we're talking about.

That’s not true at all.
Given a choice of FOP immediately, skipping the Queue, or spending an extra 15 minutes to see the queue, I’d like to see the queue.

And I’ve seen VIP Tours skip me while I’m on a standby line. I’m not the least bit unhappy waiting in a 20 minute line compared to spending $4,000 for a VIP tour.

By your logic — WDW needs to give away tickets for free. Since people who can’t afford tickets will be unhappy seeing other people take WDW vacations.

What? If that's what you got out of what I said, I don't think you get my logic at all. Besides, VIP tours have never been free.

G+ has never been free. FP+ hasn’t existed in 18 months.

 

[diskids2]

I can find the benefits to G+ and Lightening Lane. I'll choose to pay for it when I think I need it. BUT at the end of the day, I am paying for some type of service to avoid waiting in a stand by line when I DID NOT have to do that before.

I don't see the argument around that.

 

[pineapplepalms]

I already admitted cost is a very valid reason not to be excited. It’s just about the only significant reason.

It’s not just about the cost for us. Some of the recent changes are more about negatively impacting convenience. We’re a family of 5 with 3 young kids. The convenience of DME along with luggage service and resort airline check-in was invaluable for us to not have to deal with car seats or luggage, and that whole experience is not something that can be easily replicated just by spending money. I would have been willing to pay for that whole service including the luggage transport.

FP+ worked for us since we come from CA and stay at WDW for at least 10 days, so we had no issues getting Tier 1 FPs especially later in the trip. We didn’t have to wake up early with the time difference to make rope drop since we could stroll into the parks in the afternoon for our prebooked FPs and not have to think about it every morning. Will we buy it and make G+ work for us? Sure, but it does impact the way we tour and it’s not just about the money. Also while we can afford the add-ons, personally I’m not willing to pay for the Tier 1 LL rides since that cost doesn’t make sense to me based on how often we go and how many chances we have to ride those rides standby. That’s one of the key differences from MP which we’ve used and loved at DLR many times.

 

[Disneylover99]

That’s not true at all.
Given a choice of FOP immediately, skipping the Queue, or spending an extra 15 minutes to see the queue, I’d like to see the queue.

Great. But do you want to wait standby in every single queue all day? That's what I'm talking about.

And I’ve seen VIP Tours skip me while I’m on a standby line. I’m not the least bit unhappy waiting in a 20 minute line compared to spending $4,000 for a VIP tour.

Right. Because a VIP tour has never been free.

G+ has never been free. FP+ hasn’t existed in 18 months.

Come on. We all know G+ is a paid version of FP+.

 

[AnnabelleTheTalkingTree]

But I think you proved my point -- I said most families who stay onsite are spending $5,000 to $10,000 -- You then said your family is $8,000.... Right in the middle of my estimate.

As to the family that spends "only" $3,000 --- You're missing the point, Genie+ is not a mandatory purchase. Nobody has to buy it. Just like nobody has to buy park hoppers, eat expensive restaurants, etc.
So your budget family example -- They opted not to buy Park hoppers, despite the added convenience of being able to hop between parks. Similarly, they can opt not to purchase Genie+ if it's outside their budget. Or, more likely... they can purchase G+ for 1 or 2 days, when they plan on trying to get the most done. And use intelligent touring plans their remaining days. Including maximizing early morning hours. So their cost of G+ for 2 days would be $120, not $500.

Or, that family can choose to stay off-site -- Spend $2500 instead of $3,000 by staying in a cheaper off-site location, and applying $500 to G+/LL.

Yes, people with lower budgets have few options. But that's not new. Should Disney drop their ticket prices to $1, so that everyone can afford it? Maybe they should price their VIP tours at $5 per hour, so everyone can book a VIP tour?

That's the actual beauty of Disney's current transition: There is more than one way to slay the beast. Depending on your touring style as well as your budget, you have lots of options.
You want to do Disney's top E-ticket most popular attractions?
You can:
1 -- Bite the bullet and get into a standby line
2 -- Purchase a LL pass
2a - Stay in cheaper accommodations, to make up for the difference in price of LL purchases
3 - Stay onsite, and do the attraction during Extended Morning hours rope drop with a short wait
4 - Stay onsite deluxe, if the attraction is Epcot or MK, and do the attraction during evening extended hours with a relatively short wait
5 - Book a VIP tour that includes the attraction

Obviously, the bigger your budget, the more options you have. But there are options for multiple touring styles and budgets.

I think you've missed MY point. I may be able to afford to pay for Genie+, but that doesn't make me blind to how this can and will change things for people who may not be able to afford to, or just plain don't want to, pay for something that was previously included in a park ticket. My point was simply that you said that $200 was "a little bit of money." YOU may think $200 is a little bit of money (and $200 is - realistically - low end of what a family is going to wind up paying in Genie+/LL costs), but that is relative. No one is in a position to decide how much money is a little or a lot to another person. I do feel for families who scrimp and save to get to Disney, now only to have to wait in standby lines when they used to have access to FP+.

'm not disagreeing with you in that time is money and yes, of course, those who can afford to do more will have more options. None of us are *entitled* to anything, but I'm sure this pill is a whole lot easier to swallow when you identify as someone who can easily afford to pay the upcharges. It's short-sighted to dismiss the concerns of those who are financially affected by the changes.

My hope is that this system cuts down on the wait times over all, for the benefit of everyone. Because while Genie+ is technically optional, it will only be TRULY optional for families with young kids (or other guests with limitations on how long they can tolerate a line) if the normal standby lines aren't prohibitively long. If that's the case, there's a chance this really does work out better for EVERYONE.

But as I said, a couple hundred dollars IS a big increase for people with smaller vacation budgets. And sure, Disney (and any vacation, really) is a privilege and not a right. People can choose to go elsewhere if they don't like it or can't afford it, but the nickel & diming just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[havoc315]

It’s not just about the cost for us. Some of the recent changes are more about negatively impacting convenience. We’re a family of 5 with 3 young kids. The convenience of DME along with luggage service and resort airline check-in was invaluable for us to not have to deal with car seats or luggage, and that whole experience is not something that can be easily replicated just by spending money. I would have been willing to pay for that whole service including the luggage transport.

FP+ worked for us since we come from CA and stay at WDW for at least 10 days, so we had no issues getting Tier 1 FPs especially later in the trip. We didn’t have to wake up early with the time difference to make rope drop since we could stroll into the parks in the afternoon for our prebooked FPs and not have to think about it every morning. Will we buy it and make G+ work for us? Sure, but it does impact the way we tour and it’s not just about the money. Also while we can afford the add-ons, personally I’m not willing to pay for the Tier 1 LL rides since that cost doesn’t make sense to me based on how often we go and how many chances we have to ride those rides standby. That’s one of the key differences from MP which we’ve used and loved at DLR many times.

As to your first point, I'll agree wholeheartedly that I miss real DME with luggage service.

As to your second point -- Yes, at added cost, but you should be able to tour exactly as you loved. At the added cost, you'll be able to get those afternoon passes -- and if willing to spend, get far more passes than you were able to get with FP+. More in line with the MP system you loved at DLR.