90 minutes with DVC

[Dean]

Dean, just curious what you think has been violated?

Doc, I will need to check specifics to be better informed. There were several areas that I wondered if weren't in violation of the state laws. One was the idea that there are outside forces acting and that therefore DVC and the board were not acting in the best interest of the members. Another was that there have been downgrading, substitutions and deletions to the villas, especially at OKW, in regards to minor amentities like toasters, shower curtains, coasters and the like. A third is that the POS (in some places) requires control to be shifted to the members and that has not happened.

Let me be clear on my position lest anyone might misinterpret. I am very happy with DVC and it is functioning for what I bought it for (to stay at DVC resorts). I feel that overall the current Board is in a better position to carry DVC for the long haul that without the current makeup. However, I have never been happy with the Board and senior management and their approach. I continue to feel there should be direct member representation to the Board and that this is required by the POS. Legally, the Board members have a duty to act in the best interest of DVC and the members, not what's best for Disney in general. I continue to feel that to offer programs with little or no value as part of the DVC is insulting and inappropriate though not necessarily illegal. The DC has always fit into this description and does so even more currently.

Having feelings and concerns are not the same as having a legal case. Even if there are technical violations, proving them would be difficult. It would be my hope to inprove the circumstances not just create a lot of hassle for myself or DVC. I am concerned however that things are not going the path that I want to see long term and have basically decided it's time to try to affect that path by the means available to me. It would be my goal to have a positve influence in the long run.

 

[WebmasterDoc]

If you mean the "outside" influences I mentioned in the original post here, I was referring to the other Disney divisions which DVC has to involve to provide discounts and other "extra" (non-contractual) components for members. IMO, these aspects, while certainly a nice addition, are not contractual features of my membership.

The immutable point structure of each resort and the maintenance of each resort are the contractual obligations I look for DVC to maintain for me. If a worthwhile discount at a restaurant or park may be obtained, I'm happy to enjoy that also, but I look at that as above and beyond what I have paid for. Since we all have different comfort levels, I don't expect that every negotiated discount will appeal to every member. There are many available right now which I have never used as they don't appeal to me as a value. I look at the offerings of the DC in the same way. The value has never appealed to me, but some have enjoyed the option- at least in the past.

I do agree that member involvement on the board is needed. There is certainly an outline to implement that in my POS, but it also appears that a movement to make that happen must come from the membership and maybe the present board has no obligation (or motivation) to "force" the membership to move in that direction. I'm not sure there is any provision which "requires" a shift to the membership, just a means to allow member participation.

As for the changes in amenities, I'm still unclear what you refer to. Toasters still are still here - I'm looking at one right now. There are still shower curtains in the studios and coasters and other linens are available by request. The decor items (artificial trees, etc.) are certainly gone, but I don't think those items would make for a convincing complaint.

 

[vernon]

Thanks Doc for taking the time to 1) talk with people within DVC and 2) for sharing some of your thoughts on those meetings.

I can see how it is possible for some of the internal divisions within Disney (the other hotels) to have "bushwhacked" the DVC board/negotiators and presented them with a "take it or leave it" scenario on DC points. Without time to react I would think it likely they accepted what was offered and , HOPEFULLY, will go back with a plan for the future which is more workable for the membership. Possibly a naieve hope but IF that was the case I'd like to know which of the hotels were the most "difficult". I think it is pretty easy to work that out by looking at the differents points charges though LOL

Thanks again Doc,

 

[prplcrzy]

Hey Doc,

What do you think we could do to convince the other forces inside Disney that we should get a better discount or other things if they have no incentive to do so? I get the impression that we are the black sheep of the family, we make them money but no one wants to give up anything meaningful to the members for plunking down the large chunk of change to "remember the magic". I love my membership, I just added 350 points to the OKW and am looking forward to enjoying that resort soon, it just seems that they really are not concerned if we are happy. I'm not referring to the people at the DVC like your friend, I'm referring to the other forces that don't want to give anything up. Clearly from your post, if it was in the hands of your friend, we would all have the discounts we would like and probably more.

I understand the need to change things that are not working or that just need to be adjusted on a periodic basis, The impression that I get from all of the posts I have read is as follows-

The Dvc offered great things like free passes and other cool stuff at the beginning because it was a new program and they wanted to introduce it to the public and get the word spread. Sales grew but not at a blistering pace and they continued to offer great stuff, just not the park passes. Then, in the last couple of years the sales have gone through the roof and they feel that the program is pretty self sufficient and that they no longer have to bend over backwards to please the membership, because they are just going to go to the World and that they will spend money anyway. Now, they seem to be adjusting things either to it's right value, or they perceive a captive audience and are trying to squeeze more out of us instead of trying to make us feel like we are special members like they did in the past. I don't perceive a major drop off in services although the wait times at MS are longer to call (I called twice yesterday (Friday) and waited 25 and 20 minutes respectively an hour apart.) I don't think that they owe us anything, but if you think about it, the DVC is nothing more than a hotel financing scheme without having to go to a bank and get the money and without paying interest on it. The members pay for the building of the hotels and to maintain them, and in 2042 they can do what they like. We all get to enjoy these accomodations while paying for this and when they figured out they could make money off of us while getting us to finance their hotels they are beginning to get greedy. I don't mean by sticking it to us, but by not doing right by us. If they really took care of the members with these discounts and expanded programs, they really would have a base for a few different things. First, if they resold the DVC again in 2042, they would have a huge windfall of cash without doing anything and without even trying to sell it to the members because they would be so happy they would line up to buy it again. Most of the original buyers will have passed it down in the family and/or sold it to someone who will be enjoying it. They wouldn't even have to spend any money on marketing because the positive word of mouth would be so powerful they wouldn't have to so anything but sit back and collect money. or they could just book the hotel rooms and make a ton of cash on that as well, but that would be subject to the whims of the economy at any given time. I'm just saying that by doing right by us now and in the future will do nothing but guarantee them future business. Tehy should think about expanding the offerings to just do right by us for building their hotels for them.

 

[Doctor P]

Thanks for all the information, Doc!

 

[Dreamfinder2]

Facinating stuff, this thread. As we move closer to our down payment goal (late October if VWL is still available; if not, we'll just hold out for BCV), it's been SO important for us to get the most bang for the buck. What has ultimately swayed us is just a simple comparison of DVC to other timeshare options, and we've found that there's just no way to do an apples to apples comparison. There just isn't a better option that fits our wants and desires. We first took a look at what is now OKW nine years ago, and just simply talked ourselves out of it. Yep, we blew it. And, frankly, there are a lot of perks that are no longer available. Since then, though, 4 new properties have been added with two more in the chute, and that's not too shabby. There have been several posts lately about "no taxation without representation," and there is definitely a whiff of just that. What I have to keep reminding myself is that DVC is just one chunk of a huge conglomerate, and in the ivory towers of the mighty there are counsels being kept we'll probably never know nothing of. It sounds to me as though the DVC middle management genuinely wants to do right by us, but only have so much clout. More power to ya, Dean, if you want to see if there has indeed been some infidelity to the POS. I continue to have a naive trust in Disney; if someone besides Paul Pressler was running the parks, I'd feel a lot better. And Doc, thanks for being such a great advocate for owners. I sure do appreciate the "sentry duty" being rendered by so many to make sure we're protected.
Having said all that -- WDW is still my favorite "journey's end."

 

[Dean]

OK, it was mixers, coasters, placemats and cloth napkins. Plus many of the flower arrangementsf and a downgrade of the quality shower curtains once seen at OKW.

 

[one_cat]

Doc - I think I speak for everyone here that we are indebted to you for taking the time and effort to track this information down.

You talked about the fact that discounts are contracted for - my very limited understanding of contracts is that there must be a give and take on both sides for a contract to exist. Does that mean that we as DVC members somehow pay for these discounts through other means? If a favorable AP rate could be negotiated does that mean that our dues would have to rise to pay for the associated "cost" of the contract?

 

[PKS44]

First it should go without saying, but it should be said again and again anyway-- Doc, Thank you for what you are doing...

Next- it would help alot if everyone understood HOW the DC hotels arrangement with DVC works...Is it points given to DC to sell as rooms for $$$ for that hotel??? Is it some prenegotiated rate of cash from DVC which then rents out the rooms left at DVC for cash to DVC? These details would help everyone have a better understanding of how and why things change and maybe settle some of the tempers down a bit...

As for discounts- sure it helps DVC to get us discounts and I am glad they do, as Doc said. The selling of this idea is not to get more positive vibes about DVC though--- the idea is to get more MONEY FOR DISNEY as a whole...Example:
20% off at some restaurant gets more people eating at a restaurant than were eating there before (you hope) and maybe they come again without the discount, but even if they don't the mark up is so high on food they come out ahead anyway...
This brings me to my next point -HOW DVC convinces Parks to give DVC a break on admissions- IF the sentiments posted here are a true representation -No one, no one here said give me a break on admissions to save me money. What they said was I want to spend my money on something other than admissions...A DVC has say $100 to spend a day- if it is $50 on admissions then that leaves $50 for food/etc.. If admissions are discounted by 40% to $30 that leaves $70 for food/etc... Now here is the sell- Disney has to make way WAY MORE profit on $70 of food sales than on $50 of admission sales. Profit margins soar. IF DVCers are being disingenous and don't increase in park spending at least some--then it won't work out for Disney and they drop the program. I think it's worth a try.

Finally-Dreamfinder2- You don't have to wait for BCV- you can still buy OKW BWV and VWL anytime by clicking on this board's sponsor (or at least one other site I won't advertise here because they are not sponsoring this board- but you can email me if you want it.) RESALES are easy and will be more likely to get you that bang for the buck you say is important to you!

Paul

 

[WebmasterDoc]

If a favorable AP rate could be negotiated does that mean that our dues would have to rise to pay for the associated "cost" of the contract?

One_cat: That would be one option to get such a discount. The "free" pass program was like that. DVD had to pay about $35 every time one of those passes was used at a park. A contract can also be gained if DVC can convince "parks" (I don't know the name of the division) that a DVC discount will benefit them......and that's the big challenge, as they apparently are tough to convince. Yes, DVC is a profitable component of Disney, but so are the parks. I certainly have a minimal understanding of "contract" law- perhaps someone else can elaborate the fine points.

PKS44: Apparently resort rooms go into a "pool" at CRO. There are no DVC rooms in this pool until a member uses points for a non-DVC reservation. Those points, representing a room reservation, are then placed in the pool for a cash ressie. CRO then has the responsibility to rent the room- not DVC. The other resort is compensated from the pool and DVC contributes the points. The point costs are the negotiated component of the transaction.
As for the park admission- I'm not convinced that restaurant or merchandise profits are greater than admission profits. Once a park reaches a certain level of admission, it costs little more for the next 2,000 (pick a number) guests who enter. Those extra guests represent 100% profit for that division. Unless we can convince "parks" that a discount will attract a group who otherwise wouldn't visit a park, then a discount may be difficult to come by. DVC is working to find the means to convince. All of the arguments we have discussed here have been used already and "parks" apparently remains unconvinced. Why discount something you're already getting without a discount??

 

[baileybrad]

Really good information, Doc and others. The evaluation on the profits gained by park admissions and the lack of a good reason for a decent discount for DVCers really is a tough argument to make. If the DVC were sold out with no future properities on the boards with their potential buyers in the wings it would be a somewhat more convincing argument that members are growing tired of the parks and need a better enticement to visit them and spend additional cash in the process.

The truth of the matter is that even though a good many longtime members lament the reduction/cutbacks of which Dean and others have so rightly spoken ....newer and future members have no knowledge of what they may be missing and are not bothered by these things in the least. And as long as many members cry out that "we don't use this or that and we don't want our dues to rise because of the DVC supplying things that we don't use" management will continue, in some folks eyes, to "cheapen" the quality of the resorts from what many have experienced in the past. And by constantly implying and requesting that our dues be kept low, we give them the impetus and ready made reason to do so with the built-in excuse to use our own words against us...we are just trying to keep operational costs down like you have asked us to do, whether that is the true driver or not.

Folks are certainly entitled to have an opinion on any and all things. That being said my biggest gripe about some of the responses on the DVC board is the attitude that because I/we don't use/need/want, fill in the blank _______, it is somehow not necessary or it just gets in my way. And because we are all entitled to our opinions, I just wish we could all realize that just because I/we don't utilize a particular service or amenity that doesn't mean it is somehow worthless or unneccessary. I have to believe that, in general, the DVC folks are attempting to look out for our best interests and will continue to try to do the things that are in the overall best interest of the members. It is good to have a dose of reality supplied by Doc through his contact that it is not always an easy fight. Even though, we as members, have a vested interest and can sometimes be a bit bias in our affections for the DVC, when it comes to timeshare programs, the DVC is one of, if not the best. I don't think that this happened by accident. Some credit has to be given to the DVC management folks. Naive maybe but just an opinion. The one thing that I see repeated on these boards is that, we as members, feel that we are taken for granted. It appears that this is definitely true when it comes to many other parts of the Disney beast. Hopefully, DVC management can come up with some solutions in this on-going battle against the dark side. Er wait, now that REALLY was naive, wasn't it?

 

[PKS44]

Again- thanks to Doc for outstanding analysis and information...

On the DC point changes-- it should be clear to everyone now why the points have changed in low seasons like January...If CRO has to try to rent out a BWV room in January -it is harder for them to command as much $$$ as they might get for the room the DVCer took from them (the general public does not see the DVC resorts as better than the GF despite the extras)-at the same time they get no $$$ from the DVC point users -many of whom travel in January to take advantage of the "low" season-who take those DC rooms. I am sure the same goes or will go for DCL.

As to the park admissions- good point Doc..Until WDW shows a marked drop in attendance below break even point the margins are better for the admissions. Still the 10% discount of LOS shows that there is at least some give on the admissions side because the demand on the DVC was not what they were looking for...if/as that demand slackens as DVC members withdraw from buying current admission media at current prices-only then will a better discount be offered.

Paul

 

[PamOKW]

BWV room in January -it is harder for them to command as much $$$ as they might get for the room the DVCer took from them (the general public does not see the DVC resorts as better than the GF despite the extras)-

I don't agree with this. I think many people would see the difference between a two-bedroom at BWV and a regular room at the GF. I think the general public is becoming very aware of the Home Away from Home options.

The other missing factor is why what has worked in the past, has suddenly stopped working. I still don't think we have the answer and I don't think we ever will.

 

[PKS44]

PamOKW wrote: "I don't agree with this. I think many people would see the difference between a two-bedroom at BWV and a regular room at the GF. I think the general public is becoming very aware of the Home Away from Home options. "

It is not just that people see a difference. It has to do with how many want that difference. The market demand for a 2 bedroom is lower than for a GF room...

 

[PamOKW]

Not to argue a point....I'm not sure that it is accurate to say that demand for GF rooms is greater than for BWV. There are currently drastic reductions at the GF with rooms going for $199 or less per night. I think the decrease in demand for WDW rooms is pretty much across the boards. In fact, BWV rooms may have greater demand from folks attending meetings and conferences at the BW, Y&B, or SW&D convention centers looking for overflow space. I do see a difference if the resort is getting the current market price for a DVC room versus a published but pretty much unattainable price for a GF (or other WDW resort) room. There's an ad in today's paper for 40% off WDW packages. If DVC has to pay 40% more than the market rate, then I guess we would be paying 40% more in points to stay. That's what seems to be happening. We already pay a premium to stay at the resort in terms of what we "trade" and now we are also paying an additional premium while others are getting deep discounts. Just isn't right but there isn't much we can do about it.

 

[jennybobenny]

Great thread. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the DIS needs to fund Doc's trips to HH & WDW. He comes away with so much information, his vacations could be considered fact-finding missions. We appreciate it Doc.

 

[PKS44]

I really don't want this to be an argument, either. I really thought once Doc explained how the system between CRO and DVC works it would settle down some of the dissatisfaction, but apparently not....As I understand it, the $$ price that CRO can get for a room at GF(or YC,BC, whatever) does not really determine how many DVC points they will want for a stay. The factor that determines the points is how much $$ CRO can expect to get from renting out BWV, OKW or VWL...Since January is not a big time for WDW especially larger family groups for WDW-not many people want a 2BR...Those current discounts on DC rooms actually cut across the board-from GF thru any DVC rooms rented out by CRO. They can't expect people to pay rack rate at DVC if they could get 40% off at any DC hotel...so CRO has to mark DVC way down, too... and they have to have availability issues the same as any DVC member looking to use points. Also weekends are probably the easiest for DC to rent out in January, but that same weekend day at DVC "costs" CRO more points, but they cannot charge more to the general public who expect hotel rates that are the same every night...I don't blame CRO at all for making the changes. Look over at the Rent/Trade boards- points as low as $6/pt up to $14pp (rarely gotten)--usually around $10pp. So if that is the current market rate for points, why should CRO expect those points are worth more to them? Those $320/night GF rooms translate in reverse for them to anywhere from 32 points/night (average) to 53 points/night to compensate them...Even if they have to discount those GFrooms by 40%-the points equivalent comes to 19 to 32 points per night...
Paul

 

[Dean]

PKS44, maybe I read too much into Doc's post. I got two things from his info about the DC and other related items. I heard him say that the price CRO or DVC can get for the DVC room was not a factor and that there were outside WDW forces telling DVC to charge more than they would have otherwise needed to based on market forces. While I don't believe what he was told is completely accurate, I believe he truthfully reported what he was told. There obviously must be consideration given to both sides of the equation to include the price that can be had for the DVC rooms and what DVC must pay for the exchange option.

Your points about weekends costing more points but renting for the same price and that off season will rent for less partly because less families therefore less demand for larger units, are good ones.

I don't believe that DVC rentals affect the price for the DC, etc; too small of a factor. I'd love it if they took the $10 pp rental as the basis, even at rack rates. The trouble is that the points for GF and most of the other options average out to around $5-6 pp at best based on rack rates and less than $5 pp if you take discounts into account. There have almost always been discounts and at a time when there are more and larger discounts available, raising the price seems unreasonable. I do not believe that the DVC resorts are overall more difficult to rent or rent for a larger discount, compared to Deluxe or Moderates at WDW.

 

[vernon]

Is there anything that says CRO has to "rent out " the DVC points at the same time/dates that DC bookings are made? ( i.e. if a DVC member books a DC stay in February does CRO HAVE to use the coresponding number of DVC points those dates, within a month, at anytime ?)

I can see why it makes sense for the membership for the points to be used "off season" ( keeps the resorts free for us) but I would have thought if using the points to make money was of primary concern there were better times of year to use them. JMHO

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by vernon
Is there anything that says CRO has to "rent out " the DVC points at the same time/dates that DC bookings are made? ( i.e. if a DVC member books a DC stay in February does CRO HAVE to use the coresponding number of DVC points those dates, within a month, at anytime ?)

I can see why it makes sense for the membership for the points to be used "off season" ( keeps the resorts free for us) but I would have thought if using the points to make money was of primary concern there were better times of year to use them. JMHO

Obviously, DVC can decide what days and unit sizes they want to rent out. Remember also that any move on their part to use less points or get a higher demand week using the points they have to rent, will affect members. For example, they could rent them all out for Xmas or other holidays and do well but it would reduce availability for members at high demand times. So there are obviously compromises to be made in this area.