Poll: Are you going to buy at Riviera

[TexasChick123]

This is mostly my sentiment as well. I can't help but wonder when will the guillotine come down on ALL resale purchasers.

LAX

If DVD could’ve messed with prior resale purchasers, they would’ve. For a variety of reasons, they have to leave prior purchasers alone, even though they don’t want to. They can always change certain rules going forward for new buyers. Now, what will they do going forward? Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[TCRAIG]

I voted no - not because I wouldn’t want to stay there - or I’m disillusioned with DVC - but we’re over 60, already have over 1000 points, and much as it pains me to say it - I think we’re done buying. Also - with only one child who will probably go to WDW every other year - it’s not like we don’t have plenty of points to leave her...

 

[LAX]

If DVD could’ve messed with prior resale purchasers, they would’ve. For a variety of reasons, they have to leave prior purchasers alone, even though they don’t want to. They can always change certain rules going forward for new buyers. Now, what will they do going forward? Your guess is as good as mine.

I realize there are things DVD just can't do legally to those already purchased, but I am sure DVD can come up with all sorts of "legal" ideas that would make any resale purchaser (even the initial wave with no restriction at all) no longer want to be a part of the "club"!

LAX

 

[TexasChick123]

I realize there are things DVD just can't do legally to those already purchased, but I am sure DVD can come up with all sorts of "legal" ideas that would make any resale purchaser (even the initial wave with no restriction at all) no longer want to be a part of the "club"!

LAX

Their solitary goal with differentiating resale and direct is to drive new purchasers to direct and away from resale. All old purchasers, direct and resale alike, have no value to them with regards to sales anymore. To make any restrictions retroactive doesn't accomplish this goal and simply seems punitive and probably isn't allowed. They've plainly stated that they want the new sales to go through them directly at the inflated prices. I know a lot of direct purchasers think that DVD is only looking out for them, but they are looking at new direct purchasers, not past ones. Past direct purchasers are yesterday's news. What I think a lot of direct purchasers fail to realize is that they don't really care about you any more than they care about resale purchasers. You are old news. Your money has been spent or realized as a profit already. Sorry to be so harsh, but that is Sales 101. They want the prior resale purchaser to be driven to direct sales in the future just as much as a prior direct owner. New direct sales are new direct sales regardless of how you entered "the club".

A person's history with DVD as a prior direct purchaser has no bearing on anything for new direct sales. For example: As a prior direct purchaser, do you get first crack at purchasing new properties, or do they allow all owners to buy at the same time? A lower buy-in price on new resorts? Better incentives than a "resale-only" owner who decides to buy direct? A "discount" on sold out resorts? In what ways is your prior direct purchase rewarded at all with regards to new sales? Answer: It isn't because you aren't the target in this business model. New buyers are the target. Whether the new buyer comes in the form of a prior direct owner, prior resale owner, or a completely new owner makes no difference to them at all as all the money is the same.

I know the perks are differentiated out, but they don't want to alienate prior resale buyers too much because they might drive them away from direct. The goal of everything DVD does is to drive NEW direct sales where they make the most money. Old sales are just that, old.

 

[ziravan]

Their solitary goal with differentiating resale and direct is to drive new purchasers to direct and away from resale. All old purchasers, direct and resale alike, have no value to them with regards to sales anymore. To make any restrictions retroactive doesn't accomplish this goal and simply seems punitive and probably isn't allowed. They've plainly stated that they want the new sales to go through them directly at the inflated prices. I know a lot of direct purchasers think that DVD is only looking out for them, but they are looking at new direct purchasers, not past ones. Past direct purchasers are yesterday's news. What I think a lot of direct purchasers fail to realize is that they don't really care about you any more than they care about resale purchasers. You are old news. Your money has been spent or realized as a profit already. Sorry to be so harsh, but that is Sales 101. They want the prior resale purchaser to be driven to direct sales in the future just as much as a prior direct owner. New direct sales are new direct sales regardless of how you entered "the club".

A person's history with DVD as a prior direct purchaser has no bearing on anything for new direct sales. For example: As a prior direct purchaser, do you get first crack at purchasing new properties, or do they allow all owners to buy at the same time? A lower buy-in price on new resorts? Better incentives than a "resale-only" owner who decides to buy direct? A "discount" on sold out resorts? In what ways is your prior direct purchase rewarded at all with regards to new sales? Answer: It isn't because you aren't the target in this business model. New buyers are the target. Whether the new buyer comes in the form of a prior direct owner, prior resale owner, or a completely new owner makes no difference to them at all as all the money is the same.

I know the perks are differentiated out, but they don't want to alienate prior resale buyers too much because they might drive them away from direct. The goal of everything DVD does is to drive NEW direct sales where they make the most money. Old sales are just that, old.

I agree, and this is why I think that they're making a mistake.

We talk a lot about pixie dusted buyers on their vacation and how they don't pause to evaluate their purchases. First, none of the resale changes apply to that group of people, because they were never going to know about resale when they purchased anyway. New restrictions don't drive them to buy direct as direct is the only purchase path of which they are aware. Second, this is a smaller group of people every day. The prime buyer today was raised in the internet era and a five minute google/reddit/etc search is not unusual for a $100 purchase, much less a $25,000 one. This is why DVC has been addressing resales, because more and more purchasers take that "5 minute internet" peek.

In the case of prior restrictions, that search could lead a new purchasers with only 5 minutes of DVC internet search history to conclude that buying resale is bad and buying direct is good. That has been the intent and I think that has had an effect.

But Riviera? These new restrictions are such that the rampant speculation is that they hurt Riviera seriously as a purchase because they will destroy Riviera resale values. That new purchaser, the one DVC is trying to convince that they should buy direct instead of resale? That purchaser's 5 minute "DVC Riviera" history is going to turn up something far different than DVC intended. It's going to give a 5 minute drill on the dangers of buying Riviera because it will lose all resale value.

I really do believe that they've gone too far and what they're doing will now hurt sales just as much as it could potentially help them.

 

[ziravan]

I found this in a five minute DVC search. The link redirects to an “oops” page for now, but my guess is the date here says something about the start of sales/release of information, point charts, etc.

 

[skier_pete]

Their solitary goal with differentiating resale and direct is to drive new purchasers to direct and away from resale. All old purchasers, direct and resale alike, have no value to them with regards to sales anymore. To make any restrictions retroactive doesn't accomplish this goal and simply seems punitive and probably isn't allowed. They've plainly stated that they want the new sales to go through them directly at the inflated prices. I know a lot of direct purchasers think that DVD is only looking out for them, but they are looking at new direct purchasers, not past ones. Past direct purchasers are yesterday's news. What I think a lot of direct purchasers fail to realize is that they don't really care about you any more than they care about resale purchasers. You are old news. Your money has been spent or realized as a profit already. Sorry to be so harsh, but that is Sales 101. They want the prior resale purchaser to be driven to direct sales in the future just as much as a prior direct owner. New direct sales are new direct sales regardless of how you entered "the club".

A person's history with DVD as a prior direct purchaser has no bearing on anything for new direct sales. For example: As a prior direct purchaser, do you get first crack at purchasing new properties, or do they allow all owners to buy at the same time? A lower buy-in price on new resorts? Better incentives than a "resale-only" owner who decides to buy direct? A "discount" on sold out resorts? In what ways is your prior direct purchase rewarded at all with regards to new sales? Answer: It isn't because you aren't the target in this business model. New buyers are the target. Whether the new buyer comes in the form of a prior direct owner, prior resale owner, or a completely new owner makes no difference to them at all as all the money is the same.

I know the perks are differentiated out, but they don't want to alienate prior resale buyers too much because they might drive them away from direct. The goal of everything DVD does is to drive NEW direct sales where they make the most money. Old sales are just that, old.

You are exactly right in every sentence here - once you've bought - you are of lesser concern to them unless you are going to buy again.

But there is the rub. MANY DVC buyers buy more than once - that is evident on these boards. My guess is a direct buyer is more likely to buy again direct than a resale buyer is, but that's not universal. Disney must have data on this - what % of sales are to existing owners versus new owners. I have no idea what the data would say - but the % that is existing owners cannot be insignificant.

I really do believe that they've gone too far and what they're doing will now hurt sales just as much as it could potentially help them.

That was what I was trying to get at with this poll. I know we probably don't represent the average buyer here - we are likely more knowledgable than the average buyer. But we do represent a range of DVC members, new members, old members, small contracts, large contracts, resale and direct.

But so far - this poll is telling me that none of us are interested in Riviera. 82 votes so far and we have no yeses and 2 maybes. I would say in previous resorts, while you never would have had a majority of people wanting to buy, there was always some level of interest at CCV, Poly, VGF back to BLT. I really wonder if DVC is going to suffer from this decision.

 

[TexasChick123]

You are exactly right in every sentence here - once you've bought - you are of lesser concern to them unless you are going to buy again.

But there is the rub. MANY DVC buyers buy more than once - that is evident on these boards. My guess is a direct buyer is more likely to buy again direct than a resale buyer is, but that's not universal. Disney must have data on this - what % of sales are to existing owners versus new owners. I have no idea what the data would say - but the % that is existing owners cannot be insignificant.



That was what I was trying to get at with this poll. I know we probably don't represent the average buyer here - we are likely more knowledgable than the average buyer. But we do represent a range of DVC members, new members, old members, small contracts, large contracts, resale and direct.

But so far - this poll is telling me that none of us are interested in Riviera. 82 votes so far and we have no yeses and 2 maybes. I would say in previous resorts, while you never would have had a majority of people wanting to buy, there was always some level of interest at CCV, Poly, VGF back to BLT. I really wonder if DVC is going to suffer from this decision.

I did a similar poll on another board a few weeks ago, and most on there had no intention of buying Riviera, restrictions or not. That surprised me. There were a handful that were still planning on buying as well. The most shocking result of that poll was the fact that the restrictions didn’t affect people’s decisions much one way or another.

I also would be interested to know how many prior direct owners are repeat direct purchasers versus “one and done”. In that vein, how many prior resale owners are new direct purchasers? I have no idea. I’ve seen all kinds of paths here.

The purpose of my post was to make it clear that DVD is in the business of selling direct points, not keeping old purchasers happy like so many direct buyers seem to want to think (not all prior direct purchasers by any means). They have to appease the prior purchasers somewhat in case we purchase down the road, but appeasing us isn’t the goal. Driving new sales is the goal. If that means they will now offer more to prior direct and grandfathered in resale owners in the way of membership events, more discounts, restrict future resale, etc., then that’s what they’ll do.

 

[Turn the Page]

I voted maybe. We're interested but it are waiting on more information.

This is the largest factor for us....expiration date and location. We are enamored with the gondola system and can't wait to try it out. The easy access to EPCOT is great.

The expiration date is huge for us. I have said this before on other threads but any resort with a 2042 expiration date is automatically out for us because it will expire right when we are (hopefully) getting ready to think about taking grandkids to WDW. We really have no interest in the monorail resorts. The categories available at Poly (and frankly, the theme) really doesn't work for us, GF is just not our bag, and while BLT is a possibility (but also not appealing to us thematically) we just don't find the monorail to be as appealing as the gondolas, especially with its current state of repair.

Now, obviously, the resale restrictions on Riviera do give us pause. I agree with others, you have to keep an exit strategy in mind. Unfortunately no one knows. All we do know is in 23 years a large amount of contracts will expire, barring any contract extension deals like DVD tried with OKW of course. At some point the resale prices for those resorts are going to start dropping due to length of contract. Again, exactly when and by how much no one knows yet, but they will start dropping. The question for me is if I buy Riviera direct now and decide to sell in 10 years how will the resale prices compare to the prices on the legacy resorts? Because at that point only a few resorts (PVB, BLT, CCV, and maybe GF) will have more than half their original contract left on them. How will those prices compare to Riviera resales with more years left? We just don't know.

We are waiting on more info including dues (I saw a rumor suggesting they would be the highest of any other resort on property which I find a bit odd) and full point charts before we decide. If it isn't Riviera it will be SSR direct. We do love that resort.

 

[Marionnette]

I was a soft NO when Riviera was first revealed. We own at BWV and aren’t looking for another Epcot resort. I actually prefer BWV for its location and whimsical theme.

With DVC’s announcement that Riviera resale contracts will be limited strictly for use at Riviera, it became a hard NO pretty fast. It’s like driving a brand new car off of the lot knowing that it’s blue book value plummeted immediately. Granted, I didn’t buy DVC for resale purposes but DVC set itself apart from other timeshares due to the fact that contracts held their value if sold.

I’ll probabl visit and dine there. I may even try it out...once.

 

[skier_pete]

I voted maybe. We're interested but it are waiting on more information.

This is the largest factor for us....expiration date and location. We are enamored with the gondola system and can't wait to try it out. The easy access to EPCOT is great.

The expiration date is huge for us. I have said this before on other threads but any resort with a 2042 expiration date is automatically out for us because it will expire right when we are (hopefully) getting ready to think about taking grandkids to WDW. We really have no interest in the monorail resorts. The categories available at Poly (and frankly, the theme) really doesn't work for us, GF is just not our bag, and while BLT is a possibility (but also not appealing to us thematically) we just don't find the monorail to be as appealing as the gondolas, especially with its current state of repair.

Now, obviously, the resale restrictions on Riviera do give us pause. I agree with others, you have to keep an exit strategy in mind. Unfortunately no one knows. All we do know is in 23 years a large amount of contracts will expire, barring any contract extension deals like DVD tried with OKW of course. At some point the resale prices for those resorts are going to start dropping due to length of contract. Again, exactly when and by how much no one knows yet, but they will start dropping. The question for me is if I buy Riviera direct now and decide to sell in 10 years how will the resale prices compare to the prices on the legacy resorts? Because at that point only a few resorts (PVB, BLT, CCV, and maybe GF) will have more than half their original contract left on them. How will those prices compare to Riviera resales with more years left? We just don't know.

We are waiting on more info including dues (I saw a rumor suggesting they would be the highest of any other resort on property which I find a bit odd) and full point charts before we decide. If it isn't Riviera it will be SSR direct. We do love that resort.

I just wanted to say - I really appreciate this comment. It's easy to say "I won't buy Riviera because of the resale issues" but as a (resale) purchaser of DVC, I never really considered the resale value a priority with my purchase - I was never planning on selling my contracts, so where the value went didn't matter. So it really maybe shouldn't be a concern. But I still consider it too big a question mark. With the restrictions, Riviera should probably be the lowest on property resale value - even lower than OKW.

And your comment about expiration date SHOULD be a bigger deal with people. I sort of amazes me what people will pay for say Beach Club for the length of term left at that resort. And the effect of term seems so small. OKW contracts have 2042 and 2057 dates, and so a difference of 23 years vs 38 years only leads to a maybe 20% premium in the resale market. Boulder Ridge vs Copper Creek is seeing more of a $50 premium and this is 2042 versus 2068 or 23 vs 49 years, but being that resort is still for sale may be affecting those prices. So there's definitely a premium for term, but not exactly in relationship.

In the end, predicting values of Riviera in resale will be so hard. Term will certainly help a little, but blocking you out of ALL other resorts will definitely have a negative impact. The question is, what will that be? I see that as being a bigger negative to people for the most part than term.

 

[Turn the Page]

I just wanted to say - I really appreciate this comment. It's easy to say "I won't buy Riviera because of the resale issues" but as a (resale) purchaser of DVC, I never really considered the resale value a priority with my purchase - I was never planning on selling my contracts, so where the value went didn't matter. So it really maybe shouldn't be a concern. But I still consider it too big a question mark. With the restrictions, Riviera should probably be the lowest on property resale value - even lower than OKW.

And your comment about expiration date SHOULD be a bigger deal with people. I sort of amazes me what people will pay for say Beach Club for the length of term left at that resort. And the effect of term seems so small. OKW contracts have 2042 and 2057 dates, and so a difference of 23 years vs 38 years only leads to a maybe 20% premium in the resale market. Boulder Ridge vs Copper Creek is seeing more of a $50 premium and this is 2042 versus 2068 or 23 vs 49 years, but being that resort is still for sale may be affecting those prices. So there's definitely a premium for term, but not exactly in relationship.

In the end, predicting values of Riviera in resale will be so hard. Term will certainly help a little, but blocking you out of ALL other resorts will definitely have a negative impact. The question is, what will that be? I see that as being a bigger negative to people for the most part than term.

I agree with most of what you said. We just have too many question marks right now and I agree, I can't believe term isn't a bigger deal for people.

I LOVE BCV. I love the location and the pool. I would totally buy there if it wasn't for the 2042 expiration date. I can't fathom the prices people pay for those expiration dates. It just isn't worth it to me.

And I agree, the lost ability to stay at other DVC properties is a huge hit.....but how big a hit I don't know. While the ability to get out of it is a consideration for me I guess, unlike other people, I just don't look at it as an investment. It's a timeshare. If I can get out of it at all and get part of my money back I am pretty happy with that. I realize I will take a hit if we sell but I don't think anyone is predicting there won't be a resale market for Riviera contracts, just debating what the hit will be.

I saw someone comment that they wouldn't buy Riviera because the resale restriction would make it lose its value, which is a valid position to have, but then they went on to say they wouldn't buy a new car if it was going to lose a huge chunk of its value as soon as you drive it off the lot....... There is not an emoji to properly express my reaction to that comment but I'm sure you can imagine.

 

[Bing Showei]

I saw someone comment that they wouldn't buy Riviera because the resale restriction would make it lose its value, which is a valid position to have, but then they went on to say they wouldn't buy a new car if it was going to lose a huge chunk of its value as soon as you drive it off the lot....... There is not an emoji to properly express my reaction to that comment but I'm sure you can imagine.

The point, as I read it, was that DVC has, in the past, differentiated itself from other timeshares in that buying in was not like buying a new car; a precipitous drop in value as soon as you sign on the dotted line; which is true for other timeshares sold for pennies on the dollar when the original owner goes to sell.

 

[Turn the Page]

The point, as I read it, was that DVC has, in the past, differentiated itself from other timeshares in that buying in was not like buying a new car; a precipitous drop in value as soon as you sign on the dotted line; which is true for other timeshares sold for pennies on the dollar when the original owner goes to sell.

My point was the poster said they wouldn't buy a new car if they knew it would lose a huge chunk of its value as soon as they drive it off the lot which is exactly what happens when you buy a new car.

 

[Bing Showei]

My point was the poster said they wouldn't buy a new car if they knew it would lose a huge chunk of its value as soon as they drive it off the lot which is exactly what happens when you buy a new car.

My point is that's not what they said. They were saying they wouldn't buy Riviera because it is now like driving a new car off the lot.

Given Marionnette quoted KBB as a source for value, it's pretty clear there's an understanding of car values after it's driven off the lot. She literally used that term, a common colloquialism for something precipitously losing value.

 

[Turn the Page]

My point is that's not what they said. They were saying they wouldn't buy Riviera because it is now like driving a new car off the lot.

Given Marionnette quoted KBB as a source for value, it's pretty clear there's an understanding of car values after it's driven off the lot. She literally used that term, a common colloquialism for something precipitously losing value.

That isn't what I got out of it but if I misinterpreted then I apologize.

 

[Bing Showei]

That isn't what I got out of it but if I misinterpreted then I apologize.

No need to apologize. Around thees parts, picking apart verbiage for missing commas to construe intent is kinda what we do for ***** and giggles.

It's a sickness, I will concede.

 

[Turn the Page]

No need to apologize. Around thees parts, picking apart verbiage for missing commas to construe intent is kinda what we do for ***** and giggles.

It's a sickness, I will concede.

I see where the msicommunication is happening. You are referring to Marionnette's post up thread where I agree, she/he did say they wouldn't buy it because it is like buying a new car. I didn't see that post.

I saw a post yesterday that was closer to my interpretation. I know it wasn't Marionnette's because I was telling DH about it last night. I can't seem to find that post now, I have been browsing a bunch of different threads.

 

[jarestel]

Buying points at every DVC resort I like was never in the plan and the plan goes back about 20 years now. I'm sure Riviera will be nice, as all DVC resorts are, but if I decided I needed more points (which I don't) I would buy more at one or both of my two current home resorts.

 

[Bing Showei]

I see where the msicommunication is happening. You are referring to Marionnette's post up thread where I agree, she/he did say they wouldn't buy it because it is like buying a new car. I didn't see that post.

I saw a post yesterday that was closer to my interpretation. I know it wasn't Marionnette's because I was telling DH about it last night. I can't seem to find that post now, I have been browsing a bunch of different threads.

Aaaaah. Who's on first.

Yeah, I wish the search function worked better here. I have better look going through the google to find something on the DISboards.