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The Running Thread - 2019

QOTD: Would you rather run...
1. Without a watch or without music/podcasts?
2. A race with 20 people or 20,000 people?
3. In a cotton tshirt or cotton socks?
4. In 110F or -10F temperatures?
5. In high humidity or high winds?

1. Without music/podcasts. I have never listened to anything while running.
2. A race with 20 people.
3. Cotton socks
4. -10F
5. High humidity. I'm used to that here, and I hate the wind (when it's cold out).
 
ATTQOTD:
1. Without a watch. I like running with music.
2. 20,000.
3. t-shirt. I ran my first marathon in a cotton t-shirt and it was fine.
4. Probably -10. I have run in hotter temperatures and don't like it. If it's cold, I can run with layers, I'll feel warmer as I'm running, and I'll definitely run faster!
5. Humidity.
 
I know we did something similar long ago, but how about a little round of "would you rather" for today's QOTD?

If anyone has been "lurking" or hasn't participated in the thread for a while, be sure to jump in today!

QOTD: Would you rather run...
1. Without a watch or without music/podcasts?
2. A race with 20 people or 20,000 people?
3. In a cotton tshirt or cotton socks?
4. In 110F or -10F temperatures?
5. In high humidity or high winds?

1. Depends...If on a treadmill, then without a watch, but if outside, then without music.
2. 20,000 - There's no party in the back with smaller races!
3. Socks
4. -10F - It's not that bad once you are moving.
5. I'll take high winds over inevitable chafing any day.
 
My thought when you said that was that you're more likely to be underestimating the calories burned than overestimating the calories consumed.

Entirely possible. The reality is it's probably a little of both. Overestimate by 100 calories consumed and underestimate by 250 calories burned, and all the sudden the pendulum swings quite a bit.
 


I know we did something similar long ago, but how about a little round of "would you rather" for today's QOTD?

If anyone has been "lurking" or hasn't participated in the thread for a while, be sure to jump in today!

QOTD: Would you rather run...
1. Without a watch or without music/podcasts?
2. A race with 20 people or 20,000 people?
3. In a cotton tshirt or cotton socks?
4. In 110F or -10F temperatures?
5. In high humidity or high winds?

ATTQOTD:
1. without music - I occasionally do runs without music just because
2. 20 people (age group awards! ha ha)
3. t-shirt
4. -10F - I much prefer it to be cold when running
5. high winds, see #4
 
ATTQOTD:
1. Without music. Gotta have my data.
2. 20000, I seem to always run faster when I have people to chase, and running in a crowd seems to amp me up
3. Socks I think, as I kinda already do 1/2 the time.
4. -10F Give me cold any day and twice on sunday. I hate running in the heat.
5. High winds when its warm/hot, high humidity when its cool/cold.
 
I think one thing I like to keep in mind is that I'm using exact numbers on an inexact and inaccurate system in practice. I open a pack of Egglands Best Eggs. One egg = 60 calories. But I know that not every egg is equal in size. Some are bigger than others. Some days I choose 4 bigger eggs from the package and some days 4 smaller eggs. Some packages are all small eggs and some are all large eggs. The 60 calories is based on a 50g egg, but I don't weigh the eggs prior to consumption. But when I account for eating 4 eggs, I say it's 240 calories no matter whether I ate the big ones or the small ones. It's the same throughout all my meals. I say breakfast is 800 calories every day. But I don't actually know that to be true. Only rather I've placed a number on it that seems to work out based on what happens in response by my body when I eat it.

Same goes for the burned calories from working out. Did my 80DO workout on 8/13/19 really burn 233 calories? Is Autumn correct that I have "after burn" effects from my 80DO workout such that the data my Garmin spits out based on my HR during the exercise isn't really all that useful? And even if there is/isn't "after burn", is it really appropriate in the first place to use HR based data on calorie burning from strength exercises?

All throughout the system, there are inaccuracies. But for me, I take note of what I eat, I work out, and then I see over the course of several weeks whether I feel healthier or faster. If not, I adjust.



Just taking a quick look at my calories burned based on Garmin HR data:

5.15 mi, 45 min, 135 HR, 604 calories: 117.3 cal/mi, 13.4 cal/min
15.12 mi, 120 min, 141 HR, 1496 calories: 98.9 cal/mi, 12.5 cal/min
3.93 mi, 35 min, 133 HR, 459 calories: 116.8 cal/mi, 13.1 cal/min
3.54 mi, 30 min, 139 HR, 421 calories: 118.9 cal/mi, 14.0 cal/min
6.26 mi, 55 min, 139 HR, 733 calories: 117.1 cal/mi, 13.3 cal/min
6.07 mi, 44 min, 149 HR, 628 calories: 103.5 cal/mi, 14.3 cal/min
3.06 mi, 20 min, 161 HR, 337 calories: 110.1 cal/mi, 16.9 cal/min

So I'm getting a range of 99-119 cal/mi and 12.5-16.9 cal/min. And I'm not seeing a trend for HR in either direction really. My marathons were 2276, 2440, 2568, 2055, 2900, and 2720 calories when my HR was active.

The calculator that I wrote for in-race calorie consumption uses the formula:

Total kcal burned = Body Weight (in kg) * Distance of race (in km)
**(Humphrey 2013) This is a general value and a specific value would require physiological testing.
Humphrey, L. [Hanson's Coaching Services]. (2013, Nov 23). Calculating Caloric Needs for Marathon- Updated 11/22/2013 . [Video File].



The example I used (2400 calories burned) was a number out of the air. Last week I burned (per my Garmin and TrainerRoad).

8/12/19 - M - OFF = 0
8/13/19 - T - 80DO-AAA [233 cal] + Spruce Knob (90 min; 94 TSS) [957 cal] = 1190 cal
8/14/19 - W - 55 min Easy (+Strides) Run [733 cal] = 733 cal
8/15/19 - R - Gibralter (105 min; 112 TSS) [1186 cal] + 30 min Brick Run at Easy [421 cal] = 1607 cal
8/16/19 - F - 80DO-Total Body Core [299 cal] + Mist (90 min; 108 TSS) [919 cal] = 1218 cal
8/17/19 - Sa - Longfellow (240 min; 180 TSS) [2300 cal] + 35 min Evening Run at Easy [459 cal] = 2759 cal
8/18/19 - Su - 120 min Long Run w/ FF [1496 cal] + 80DO-Cardio Flow [236 cal] = 1732 cal

Average workout cal burn per day = 1320 cal; per workout day = 1540 cal



I think it very likely goes back to the inaccuracy of the data. Am I really at a deficit of 50 calories per day? Or is it merely that all of my inaccuracies in the system I've set up has led to a 1750 calorie deficit in a week? In the span of two weeks, just about a month ago, I lost 3 pounds. So if I were eating at 1700 calories, were my calculations actually off by 500 calories per day? If the 3500 cal/lb is true, then that must be the case. (3500*3 = 10500/21 = 500 cal/day deficit)

I also know on a daily basis and day of the week basis there is definite ebb and flow. I weigh myself the morning prior to a long hard workout and I weigh X. I weigh myself the next morning after the hard workout, but before the next one and I'll probably weigh X+3. Did I really gain 3 pounds? Because I know if I give it 2-3 days, the weight will go back down to X. It's more of my body's in the moment response to that last workout. But more important to me is whether I feel healthy and fast.

OK, I totally agree with all of the likely inaccuracies in food intake total calories and Garmin activity calorie numbers. I think what was bothering me in all of this is that you are not presenting any uncertainty with this - yes, you are "using exact numbers" when maybe it's not strictly the best practice to do so. Sorry, the scientist in me is coming out on a running discussion board, so I should probably not worry so much. :) You've put out numbers about a 50-cal deficit or 100-cal deficit per day without mentioning any sort of uncertainty range here. I feel like it's making this all look more precise than it really is. It seems like 50 or even 100 calories in a day is well within the uncertainty of being able to quantify what you ate or the calories you expended per day.

I know you keep exhaustive data on everything you do and eat, but there are going to be both systematic and random errors in your analysis that are really hard to dig out. Apparently for you, the background "true" but not completely knowable calories in and calories out are working to meet your goals.

Also, it's nice to see that apparently your average activity level is not 1.5 marathon's worth of activity per day. I didn't know how you were surviving that. :)
 


Entirely possible. The reality is it's probably a little of both. Overestimate by 100 calories consumed and underestimate by 250 calories burned, and all the sudden the pendulum swings quite a bit.

When I was in my weight loss phase, I tried a bunch of different calorie tracking apps, and most seemed to OVERESTIMATE the calories burned. The most accurate I found was Google Fit, and after over a year and a half of tracking, it was right at 3400 calories burned per pound lost. (Maybe it wasn't the most accurate, but it best lined up with the inaccuracies of my food tracking).
 
1. Without music. I’m hyper paranoid about my surroundings and do not assume even the smallest amount of competence from other human beings when it comes to things like driving cars, riding bikes, keeping track of their pets, recognizing that other human beings inhabit the planet outside of themselves, etc. I only listen to music with one earbud in and one out during races when I’m no longer worried about some of those issues that could result in major injury; I keep one out so I can be courteous to other runners.

2. 20,000 people. Easier to blend in. “You can always tell a Milford man.”

3. What’s cotton? Never heard of it.

4. 110F. I hate the cold. As long as I pay attention to hydration I can manage the heat.

5. Humidity. I assume this is the type of wind that, quite frankly, I’d be afraid to be out in. Humidity sucks, but I’m not worried about my physical safety in it.
 
5. Humidity. I assume this is the type of wind that, quite frankly, I’d be afraid to be out in. Humidity sucks, but I’m not worried about my physical safety in it.

The wind questions made me think about the NY Marathon where the wind was so bad they wouldn't let the wheelchair contestants start on the Verrazano Bridge, for fear of them being injured.
 
QOTD: Would you rather run...
1. Without a watch or without music/podcasts? Without a watch

I can run without either but if I had to choose one to drop, it would be a watch, as I used to run without a watch all the time before the days of GPS. Even today, I can pretty much track all my stats without a watch since I roughly know based on effort my pace/heart rate and I always measure out my distance on maps prior to the run. I could then manually record my run at the end.

2. A race with 20 people or 20,000 people? 20,000 people

Unless the prizes for the 20 people race were good and I had a chance to win one.

3. In a cotton tshirt or cotton socks? A cotton shirt

Having a cotton shirt only matters if I am sweating and if so, I can easily remove it.

4. In 110F or -10F temperatures? 110F

Heat over cold any day

5. In high humidity or high winds? Humidity

It depends on the season. High winds in the summer are preferable to humidity. High winds in the winter, nooooooo....Either way, i can run in high humidity.
 
Last edited:
QOTD: Would you rather run...
1. Without a watch or without music/podcasts?
2. A race with 20 people or 20,000 people?
3. In a cotton tshirt or cotton socks?
4. In 110F or -10F temperatures?
5. In high humidity or high winds?

1. I don't use headphones while running, so without music/podcasts is easy.
2. Interesting. 20 makes my slowness that much more obvious to everyone - I'd feel like I was making the people running it stay late. 20,000 on the other hand would be...what, about 1/3 to 1/4 bigger than SWRR Half was? I don't know that I'd notice the difference. I'll go 20k.
3. I'd go for the cotton T-shirt, but under duress.
4. I've lived in both Phoenix and Maine. I think I'd cope better with running in -10F, but I've biked in 110F so I could go either way.
5. Depends if it's a headwind or a tailwind. (Or, if it's an out-and-back, whether it starts or ends as a tailwind.)
 
OK, I totally agree with all of the likely inaccuracies in food intake total calories and Garmin activity calorie numbers. I think what was bothering me in all of this is that you are not presenting any uncertainty with this - yes, you are "using exact numbers" when maybe it's not strictly the best practice to do so. Sorry, the scientist in me is coming out on a running discussion board, so I should probably not worry so much. :) You've put out numbers about a 50-cal deficit or 100-cal deficit per day without mentioning any sort of uncertainty range here. I feel like it's making this all look more precise than it really is. It seems like 50 or even 100 calories in a day is well within the uncertainty of being able to quantify what you ate or the calories you expended per day.
I know you keep exhaustive data on everything you do and eat, but there are going to be both systematic and random errors in your analysis that are really hard to dig out. Apparently for you, the background "true" but not completely knowable calories in and calories out are working to meet your goals.

Admittedly, I think I found the error in my calculations - my memory. So it's been years since I've used MyFitnessPal, but that's what I used in 2012 to lose weight. So I decided to punch in my current weight and see what it said my current BMR estimate was.

2190 calories

If I told it I wanted to lose 0.5 pound per week.

1940 calories (or a 250 calorie deficit)

If I told it I wanted to lose 1.0 pound per week.

1690 calories (or a 500 calorie deficit)

So since I trust the MyFitnessPal system since it helped me drop well over 60 pounds (the other weight loss occurred in 2009-2010), then I'm going to take their value. This means while I "thought" I was running a deficit of 50-100 calories, I was more likely running a deficit of 450-500 calories like you have thought. That would seem to jive better with your numbers and help figure out how my errors were leading to the right answer. The 1700/1800 number stuck in my head for the wrong reason apparently. The silver lining is I was able to figure out a way to pull out old weight data from MyFitnessPal and combine it with other sources to generate a plot from 2012 to current which I've been trying to find for years.

Screen Shot 2019-08-22 at 1.43.18 PM.png

It's been so long since I've looked at any of that info that I just guess "1700" or "1800" became my new normal.

Also, it's nice to see that apparently your average activity level is not 1.5 marathon's worth of activity per day. I didn't know how you were surviving that. :)

:faint:

When I was in my weight loss phase, I tried a bunch of different calorie tracking apps, and most seemed to OVERESTIMATE the calories burned. The most accurate I found was Google Fit, and after over a year and a half of tracking, it was right at 3400 calories burned per pound lost. (Maybe it wasn't the most accurate, but it best lined up with the inaccuracies of my food tracking).

Same here after revisiting the original source.
 
I know we did something similar long ago, but how about a little round of "would you rather" for today's QOTD?

If anyone has been "lurking" or hasn't participated in the thread for a while, be sure to jump in today!

QOTD: Would you rather run...
1. Without a watch or without music/podcasts?
2. A race with 20 people or 20,000 people?
3. In a cotton tshirt or cotton socks?
4. In 110F or -10F temperatures?
5. In high humidity or high winds?

1) Without music, sometimes having only the sound of my feet is a really nice escape
2) oddly this was the toughest one for me.....with just 20 people the chance at winning my age group increases, but races with 20k participants usually have better on course entertainment and distractions, but I don't like crowds (but I love gatherings, isn't it ironic), but large races have better bling.....oh I don't know.....20,000 people
3) Cotton shirt, feet are too important on a run to be wrapped in cotton
4) -10, I can always add layers......besides the cold never bothered me anyway
5) high winds, humidity is awful
 
I know we did something similar long ago, but how about a little round of "would you rather" for today's QOTD?

If anyone has been "lurking" or hasn't participated in the thread for a while, be sure to jump in today!

QOTD: Would you rather run...
1. Without a watch or without music/podcasts?
2. A race with 20 people or 20,000 people?
3. In a cotton tshirt or cotton socks?
4. In 110F or -10F temperatures?
5. In high humidity or high winds?
ATTQOTD:
1. Without music/podcast. I NEED to know my data!
2. 20,000. Similar to others answers, I don't want to be last ever again!
3. Cotton t-shirt. I can always take it off and just run in sports bra if I get too hot.
4. -10. Because I can add layers but you can only take off so much without getting arrested!
5. High winds. Because humidity SUCKS. Ask me how I know, lol.
 
QOTD: Would you rather run...
1. Without a watch or without music/podcasts?
2. A race with 20 people or 20,000 people?
3. In a cotton tshirt or cotton socks?
4. In 110F or -10F temperatures?
5. In high humidity or high winds?
1. Without a watch. Music or podcasts help the time pass more quickly.
2. 20,000 if only because that probably means I'm at Disneyland or Disney World.
3. Hmm. Probably cotton shirt because I can help protect better in that area.
4. That depends on if there's ice or not.
5. Humidity. If only because I've read about the difficulties high winds caused at the inaugural Avengers Half at Disneyland and I have run 3 races including the marathon in humidity at Disney World and gotten through them fine.
 
I'm going to digress form the QOTD for a few, if you'll indulge me...

I just got a new Garmin - I don't especially need GPS/interval alerts/tracking/etc., as my phone's been handling that just fine for many years, but I do often find myself wishing I could look at the time or distance quickly without fishing my phone out of its pocket, and my near vision has gotten so bad, I can't read any of my old watches without reading glasses, even with my arm stretched out. And the Garmin was essentially free to me, thanks to selling some stuff I no longer need. So I have this new Garmin (45S) and I can see its big numbers - hooray! AND, it's comfortable - hooray again! Bonus: it's a really good-looking watch! It also came with HR tracking...

About the HR thing. I think I need to just do what I do and let it do what it does and see what shows up for a while, but I'll say this so far: starting to track HR in the heat of FL summer is maybe not the best time to start. :rotfl::scared1: I ran (run-walk intervals) what felt like an easy 4 miles the other day: felt good, could easily have kept up that slow pace for lots more miles; yeah I was warm, but the Feels Like was "only" 90-something, rather than our usual 100-something, and it felt good! But Garmin says I spent the bulk of that run in HR Zone 4. Huh. :confused3 It sure didn't feel like a Zone 4 effort. Maybe my working HR is just higher than the average person? Maybe I'm sooooo acclimated to existing in this heat, I'm comfortable at higher HRs? IDK. It'll be interesting to try a test on the treadmill and see if I can get a real-life idea of where my max HR actually comes in. And it'll really be interesting to see where my HR falls when (IF?!?!?!?!) it finally cools down!
 

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