Otto Warmbier

[CdnCarrie]

Not since my late teens and a visit to Tijuana and the Mexican border towns have I traveled outside of the country, mainly because my DH refuses to do so. IMO, while the headline grabbers such as this story are rare, I always assumed that if one left the US to travel anywhere, they were pretty much on their own.

No countries have embassies that usually help out in emergencies. You're not on you're own. And obviously traveling to North Korea was not a smart move but to never travel outside of the country due to fear? Really? That's sad. How about Canada?

 

[Adkeesee]

I think that many people there know the truth, as well. Word of life outside of NK is smuggled in and passed around.

You're right. I'm sure there are. I'm just very thankful to live where I do. We take our freedoms for granted.

 

[mamacatnv]

No countries have embassies that usually help out in emergencies. You're not on you're own. And obviously traveling to North Korea was not a smart move but to never travel outside of the country due to fear? Really? That's sad. How about Canada?

DH doesn't like to travel in general so outside the country is not even on his radar. Sure, we didn't take the kids to Europe, we took them to The Pacific NW or the Redwoods or the East Coast or a tour of Texas etc. They didn't lack for exposure to things it was just not things in a foreign country.
Now that the kids are grown, I will most likely do some traveling internationally and will leave DH at home in his recliner where he is most happy. However, I will be paying attention to the travel warnings issued by the US State Dept.
Egypt is way way way high on my bucket list but it will have to wait until I get to the point in my life that the risk is worth it to me. At early 50's that is not the case, however, in the years to come, who is to say.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

You're right. I'm sure there are. I'm just very thankful to live where I do. We take our freedoms for granted.

So true. I was just reading the story about a young woman who escaped NK when she was 17.

Here's what she says at the end. Something we should all probably keep in mind:

"In South Korea, Lee also learnt about freedom. “Breathing in South Korea, even though the life here is not easy, makes me so happy. I feel that sitting in a coffee shop, having a cup of tea and looking out of the window at the blue sky — this is happiness. Truly happiness. I could never have this moment when I was living in North Korea for 17 years and when I was hiding in China for 10 years. I don’t think many people, when they are having a cup of tea, go: ‘That’s freedom. It’s the joy of life.’ But me, I have that.” For the first time in two hours, she laughs."

https://www.ft.com/content/6dc2c6c2-e6f9-11e6-893c-082c54a7f539

 

[jrmasm]

You say that with such conviction! How do any of us know for sure?

I admit it sounds bizarre, but I also think it's a distinct possibility.

Why wouldn't the U.S. use whatever resources we can?

1) http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-rodman-west-point-20160303-story.html

"Liam Collins, the director of the Modern War Institute at West Point, who had issued the invitation to Rodman, asked directly whether Rodman thought he had a role to play as an emissary between the United States and North Korea in the same way that “ping-pong diplomacy” opened doors with China.

His agent, Chris Volo, was enthusiastic. “Dennis would do anything for President Trump.… He would go back there in a second, if it ended up helping our nation, helping our president,’’ said Volo."

2) http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-rodman-north-korea-20170613-story.html

"On Tuesday, finally came news that the 23-year-old had been released and late that night had arrived in his native Ohio.

The news of the release also came amid a bizarre coincidence: the arrival of former basketball star Dennis Rodman, who had landed in North Korea on Tuesday.

Rodman had tweeted a link with a photo of himself holding a ticket for Air Koryo, North Korea’s state-owned airline, and wrote, “I’m back.” It quickly fueled speculation that Rodman had helped secure Warmbier’s release, given Rodman’s previous trips to the reclusive nation and his public support for President Trump.

But State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert denied Rodman had anything to do with it, and when asked about his trip there, she said, "We strongly, strongly suggest Americans not travel to North Korea."

an administration official said that Secretary of State Rex Tillerson had begun briefing the president on Warmbier’s case in February and that the president directed Tillerson to attempt to secure the release of Americans held in North Korea.

By May, a State Department special representative for North Korea policy met high-level representatives from the North Korean Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Oslo, and they agreed that the Swedish Embassy in Pyongyang, the North Korean capital, would be authorized to pay a consular visit to all four detainees.

This month, State Department Special Representative Joseph Yun met in New York City with North Korea’s ambassador to the United Nations. That’s when U.S. officials first learned Warmbier was in a coma.

Between June 6 and 11, Tillerson told Yun to prepare to travel to North Korea with the intent of bringing Warmbier back to the United States. The State Department got a medical team and plane while North Korea was told a delegation would travel to Pyongyang."

I guess we'll have to see how it plays out.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d2785d3083d_story.html?utm_term=.7a5d6c410e61


When he went to North Korea, there was some expectation that Rodman would try to secure the release of four Americans being held hostage there, although the NBA veteran said that was not his mission.

In what people involved described as a “bizarre coincidence,” a senior State Department official was already on a secret mission in Pyongyang, collecting Otto Warmbier, a college student arrested in January last year and who was discovered only last week to have been in a coma for some 15 months.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

http://time.com/4822725/dennis-rodman-north-korea-ambassador-shirt/

June 17, 2017

"Dennis Rodman Left North Korea Wearing an 'Ambassador Rodman' Shirt

Dennis Rodman departed North Korea following his latest trip wearing an "Ambassador Rodman" T-shirt, suggesting the former NBA star has been attempting to promote diplomacy between the isolated country and the U.S.

Rodman returned to Beijing Saturday and was mobbed by reporters at the airport. He was wearing different clothing at the time, but an image of the shirt he was donning as he left Pyongyang earlier in the day circulated around social media.

"Everybody's going to be happy. It was a good day. It was a good trip. A really good trip," Rodman said.

Repeatedly questioned on whether or not he met with the country's leader, Kim Jong Un, Rodman told reporters: "You'll find out."

Rodman visited North Korea in 2013 and 2014 and met with the leader, calling him his "best friend." One of his trips was chronicled in the 2015 documentary Big Bang in Pyongyang, in which Rodman teaches basketball to North Korean players and sings "Happy Birthday" to Kim."

 

[DizBelle]

I agree there should be restrictions for Americans traveling to NK, and I also believe that countries we have relationships should be told there will be ramifications if they do not honor those restrictions. I admit I have no idea how that would occur, but I am appalled that any "tour" company is allowed to take our citizens into a country such as NK.



Oh my dear Lord, I am not at all sure what is worse, torture or an experiment. My heart breaks.

Re: "tour company allowed to take our citizens into a country such as NK". Who could disallow what some company in another country does?

There is also this little thing called freedom. We are free to make whatever decisions we want regarding where we travel.

Unless you want to make a US law that bans travel to NK, I don't see how it could be done. Even if we do make such a law, I'm not sure how it would work because you'd have to be on foreign soil in order to do it and the US has no jurisdiction on foreign soil. I suppose they could arrest you if you attempt to return.

What were the mechanisms in place that kept US citizens from traveling to Cuba?

 

[mamacatnv]

While I know it can be difficult or impossible for US citizens to visit some countries, are there any we are actually banned from visiting?
I just did a bit of Googling and didn't see anything that outright says No, you CANNOT go

 

[pryncess527]

Re: "tour company allowed to take our citizens into a country such as NK". Who could disallow what some company in another country does?

There is also this little thing called freedom. We are free to make whatever decisions we want regarding where we travel.

Unless you want to make a US law that bans travel to NK, I don't see how it could be done. Even if we do make such a law, I'm not sure how it would work because you'd have to be on foreign soil in order to do it and the US has no jurisdiction on foreign soil. I suppose they could arrest you if you attempt to return.

What were the mechanisms in place that kept US citizens from traveling to Cuba?

A US law that banks travel to NK is exactly what is being proposed. As far as enforcement, since your US Passport is generally your ticket into another country, I would imagine that there are mechinisms to prevent usage of that passport to enter the NK.
With Cuba, there was a trade embargo that made it illegal to spend money there, complicating travel, but to my knowledge the US never "banned" travel there with Passport restrictions. That is, admittedly, a very extreme move. My understanding is that we usually only do that in times of declared war, banning travel to countries we are at war with.

 

[bcla]

I saw on the news this morning they just had a tour a week ago even though they stated they stopped. Maybe it stopped this week?

A bunch of sources were reporting since yesterday that they stopped bringing US citizens.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

While I know it can be difficult or impossible for US citizens to visit some countries, are there any we are actually banned from visiting?
I just did a bit of Googling and didn't see anything that outright says No, you CANNOT go

This article from Newsweek may help answer the question: {shudders}

http://www.newsweek.com/americans-can-still-visit-north-korea-not-great-idea-589795

 

[mi*vida*loca]

A bunch of sources were reporting since yesterday that they stopped bringing US citizens.

Got you. I "watch/listen" the news as I'm getting ready in the morning. Going in and out of the room so I probably missed that part.

 

[bcla]

A US law that banks travel to NK is exactly what is being proposed. As far as enforcement, since your US Passport is generally your ticket into another country, I would imagine that there are mechinisms to prevent usage of that passport to enter the NK.
With Cuba, there was a trade embargo that made it illegal to spend money there, complicating travel, but to my knowledge the US never "banned" travel there with Passport restrictions. That is, admittedly, a very extreme move. My understanding is that we usually only do that in times of declared war, banning travel to countries we are at war with.

There has never been and probably will never be a law that make it illegal for a US citizen or national (there have been some over the years) to visit any country unless there's a state of war. Generally all there are only advisories from the State Dept. of safety concerns.

Otherwise, the only restrictions have been on the spending of money, and those have been enforced by the Treasury Dept. That usually means requiring a permit to spend money and limits on how much money can be spent. Cuba was the primary example, but I remember Iranian coworkers who mentioned that there were restrictions on what they could bring back to the US.

 

[bcla]

Got you. I "watch/listen" the news as I'm getting ready in the morning. Going in and out of the room so I probably missed that part.

Forgot to include a link.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...weighs-change-after-warmbier-death/103023202/

 

[AppleDumpling]

Such a terrible and senseless loss of a young life. It is so sad. Clearly he made an incredibly foolish decision, but I doubt he realized the seriousness of the risk he was taking by going there. My thoughts go out to his parents and siblings. I don't know if they'll ever know what really happened and to what extent he suffered. RIP Otto.

 

[AppleDumpling]

.

 

[dish rag]

What made you interested? Have you traveled in that part of the world and find it beautiful and interesting?

ETA I guess I should say, was there something in particular that you are aware of that you wanted to see or experience? I guess if I think about it I really don't know much of anything about NK outside of a people living under a brutal regime, no beautiful vistas or topography or such that make me say, I would love to see that someday.

Mostly what interested me was the fact that few people have been there. That's about it. From what I understand the food is not good, the accomidstions are bad. I think there is only 1 hotel for westerners. The rooms are likely bugged and visitors are extremely sensored. There is really no good reason to go there.

 

[pryncess527]

Mostly what interested me was the fact that few people have been there. That's about it. From what I understand the food is not good, the accomidstions are bad. I think there is only 1 hotel for westerners. The rooms are likely bugged and visitors are extremely sensored. There is really no good reason to go there.

I'll admit I have also thought about it, though never seriously. Like dish rag, I've never heard anything good from a tourism perspective, but as a student of politics it would be fascinating to experience. But it's an experience I'm fine passing on - fascination is not worth my freedom.

TBQH, I'd rather go to Iran if I were going to non-friendly-to-US countries as a political anthropology trip. Much better odds of getting out safely too.

 

[cabanafrau]

Mostly what interested me was the fact that few people have been there. That's about it. From what I understand the food is not good, the accomidstions are bad. I think there is only 1 hotel for westerners. The rooms are likely bugged and visitors are extremely sensored. There is really no good reason to go there.

Oh, I didn't think there was a reason to go there. I simply got to thinking that perhaps there is a particular mountain range, coastline, etc., that you may have seen pictures of or that you had traveled in that region of Asia and found it particularly beautiful. I can't say I've even seen memorable pictures of the North Korean landscape to make me wish it was safe to visit.

 

[cabanafrau]

I'll admit I have also thought about it, though never seriously. Like dish rag, I've never heard anything good from a tourism perspective, but as a student of politics it would be fascinating to experience. But it's an experience I'm fine passing on - fascination is not worth my freedom.

TBQH, I'd rather go to Iran if I were going to non-friendly-to-US countries as a political anthropology trip. Much better odds of getting out safely too.

Funny, I think these are examples of me realizing I have no desire to run with the big dogs and explore totalitarian regimes and the like. Instead preferring to watch those political issues from afar on my "porch" and confine myself to directly sniffing my nose only into the petty partisan gamesmanship going on here in the US for the last however many years.