Otto Warmbier

[RedAngie]

Heartbreaking. I gotta feel bad for the guy, despite how dumb it is to go to NK. In your twenties, you feel invincible- I honestly think I have family members who would go to North Korea for the adventure EVEN after hearing this story. There needs to be restrictions on Americans traveling there, this tour company shouldn't be allowed to operate if it puts lives in danger.

It was a Chinese tour company. The U.S. has no power to stop them from operating. Even though this particular company just announced they won't accept U.S. citizens anymore, there are other Chinese companies that will. Restrictions won't stop anybody determined to go. U.S. citizens have been able to easily circumvent the ban on visits to Cuba for decades, and the same will apply if travel to North Korea is banned.

When I was traveling in Morocco, I met this guy who had a list of countries "that my mom told me not to go to". He was hitting up things like Venezuela, Iraq, Nigeria, the Congo and Mali, and was VERY proud of that fact. Morocco was an extremely tame destination for him. As I said above, when you are 20 you feel invincible, and pushing the envelope is a point of pride.

The above seems to have been this guy's motivation for visiting.

Mine are in college and have been handling their own affairs for quite a while, which is exactly the way we like it. I would have flipped out and played every single parent card imaginable if they tried to visit NK. I just don't see what would have drawn anyone to want to visit in the first place?

His father didn't play any parent card; indeed, he actually encouraged his son to take the side trip when the son mentioned it and even provided the funds for it.

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I don't think Warmbier's medical condition was intentional on the part of NK, but rather a serious accident or mistake. What good is a prisoner in a coma to them?

 

[DaisyJ]

When I was traveling in Morocco, I met this guy who had a list of countries "that my mom told me not to go to". He was hitting up things like Venezuela, Iraq, Nigeria, the Congo and Mali, and was VERY proud of that fact. Morocco was an extremely tame destination for him. As I said above, when you are 20 you feel invincible, and pushing the envelope is a point of pride.

There is a difference between pushing the envelope and outright stupidity.

 

[sunshinehighway]

I do understand/see that point. However, I look at it as already pretty common knowledge. Every couple weeks the news is talking about the latest nuclear missile test in NK and impacts and stress caused to the United States. Surely the people who are going over there have some knowledge of the news and get updates/read warning from the U.S. travel service. They obviously aren't going over there thinking it's a peaceful country where laws are similar to their homeland. I just expect and hope for a level of personal responsibility from everyone. And I would prefer icy relations with NK not to get icier...

Honestly, I don't think they have any real concept of what can happen if they go there. Yeah they know but in an abstract way. Especially when the person is younger (like Otto), they have no real concept of how dangerous it is.
Maybe this horrible situation will help people understand that yes it can happen to you and it's not worth it.

 

[mom2rtk]

That wasn't the sense I got. My sense was that something went horribly wrong (probably some kind of beating or torture early on) and they were trying to cover it up by saying he had botulism. I don't think they expected him to die - they were keeping him alive with a feeding tube in his nose. (Another sign this was longstanding. He could've been vented in NK, too, we don't yet know.) I think there was just a lot of international pressure put on them to let him go as of late. My guess is when they got him to the U.S, he fit the criteria for brain death and his parents made the difficult choice to let him go (rather than venting and pegging him). Of course, I could be wrong, but that's what I got. There haven't been a lot of details released yet. I'm sure it's going to be a heartbreaking story once all the pieces are put together. Some day.

I also figured the parents had likely made the hard choice to let him go. So sad.

 

[pryncess527]

I do understand/see that point. However, I look at it as already pretty common knowledge. Every couple weeks the news is talking about the latest nuclear missile test in NK and impacts and stress caused to the United States. Surely the people who are going over there have some knowledge of the news and get updates/read warning from the U.S. travel service. They obviously aren't going over there thinking it's a peaceful country where laws are similar to their homeland. I just expect and hope for a level of personal responsibility from everyone. And I would prefer icy relations with NK not to get icier...

No, but I think they do travel with the expectation that the US State Dept will use diplomatic means to try and bring them home if something bad happens.

 

[cabanafrau]

It was a Chinese tour company. The U.S. has no power to stop them from operating. Even though this particular company just announced they won't accept U.S. citizens anymore, there are other Chinese companies that will. Restrictions won't stop anybody determined to go. U.S. citizens have been able to easily circumvent the ban on visits to Cuba for decades, and the same will apply if travel to North Korea is banned.




The above seems to have been this guy's motivation for visiting.



His father didn't play any parent card; indeed, he actually encouraged his son to take the side trip when the son mentioned it and even provided the funds for it.

*************************************************

I don't think Warmbier's medical condition was intentional on the part of NK, but rather a serious accident or mistake. What good is a prisoner in a coma to them?

I have no stomach for deriding this kid or his parents for making the decision to go, despite the fact I don't understand the choice. I'm sure neither he or they ever dreamed this outcome was possible, despite knowing the destination wasn't ideal. He went, they've all suffered immensely for it and now their son is dead. I can't imagine the anguish. I have sympathy and wish them peace.

My personal opinion, based on nothing but my own first impression the moment I heard he was freed and in a coma from botulism and sleeping pills, was that he was used in some type of experiment. I'm not sure NK ever had any intent to use him as any kind of bargaining chip from the start, so I doubt they particularly had much concern about if he returned home at all, returned home in a coma or they simply said at some point his sentence was extended for further infractions.

 

[Nancyg56]

I was sad to hear of his death. His poor family have been through so much. It just a terrible situation.
As far as restricting travel to NK, I do think there should be restrictions on Americans going there. This is a brutal government that isn't above using tourists as pawns. It's human nature to do stupid things and think nothing bad will happen to you. People do it all the time. Unfortunately, bad things do happen.

I agree there should be restrictions for Americans traveling to NK, and I also believe that countries we have relationships should be told there will be ramifications if they do not honor those restrictions. I admit I have no idea how that would occur, but I am appalled that any "tour" company is allowed to take our citizens into a country such as NK.

I have no stomach for deriding this kid or his parents for making the decision to go, despite the fact I don't understand the choice. I'm sure neither he or they ever dreamed this outcome was possible, despite knowing the destination wasn't ideal. He went, they've all suffered immensely for it and now their son is dead. I can't imagine the anguish. I have sympathy and wish them peace.

My personal opinion, based on nothing but my own first impression the moment I heard he was freed and in a coma from botulism and sleeping pills, was that he was used in some type of experiment. I'm not sure NK ever had any intent to use him as any kind of bargaining chip from the start, so I doubt they particularly had much concern about if he returned home at all, returned home in a coma or they simply said at some point his sentence was extended for further infractions.

Oh my dear Lord, I am not at all sure what is worse, torture or an experiment. My heart breaks.

 

[dish rag]

I had an interest in going and checked into it. It's suggested to contact the Swedish embassy befor going and it's doable but not as easy as some make it out to get there. There are plenty of warnings about travel there. Enough so that it would be extremely foolish to go. They play by their own rules there and if they decide you broke the rules you are on your own and good luck. Not worth it. The young man should have known better and took a foolish risk in going.

 

[cabanafrau]

I agree there should be restrictions for Americans traveling to NK, and I also believe that countries we have relationships should be told there will be ramifications if they do not honor those restrictions. I admit I have no idea how that would occur, but I am appalled that any "tour" company is allowed to take our citizens into a country such as NK.



Oh my dear Lord, I am not at all sure what is worse, torture or an experiment. My heart breaks.

Note, that is strictly my gut reaction, absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

 

[cabanafrau]

I had an interest in going and checked into it. It's suggested to contact the Swedish embassy befor going and it's doable but not as easy as some make it out to get there. There are plenty of warnings about travel there. Enough so that it would be extremely foolish to go. They play by their own rules there and if they decide you broke the rules you are on your own and good luck. Not worth it. The young man should have known better and took a foolish risk in going.

What made you interested? Have you traveled in that part of the world and find it beautiful and interesting?

ETA I guess I should say, was there something in particular that you are aware of that you wanted to see or experience? I guess if I think about it I really don't know much of anything about NK outside of a people living under a brutal regime, no beautiful vistas or topography or such that make me say, I would love to see that someday.

 

[mamacatnv]

No, but I think they do travel with the expectation that the US State Dept will use diplomatic means to try and bring them home if something bad happens.

Not since my late teens and a visit to Tijuana and the Mexican border towns have I traveled outside of the country, mainly because my DH refuses to do so. IMO, while the headline grabbers such as this story are rare, I always assumed that if one left the US to travel anywhere, they were pretty much on their own.

There was a Criminal Minds spin off the past couple of years "Beyond Borders" that dealt with a "team" that would travel internationally to investigate kidnappings/murder that took place outside of the US. I viewed the show as complete fiction. I am sure there are instances where the US can and will get involved but IMO its certainly not a guarantee and not something I would bank on.

There are some parts of this world that are just not safe and its prudent to stay away. There have been stories of students/journalist nabbed near borders etc. Just, IMO stay away. If one feels they must take this risk, then for goodness sake, behave! Know the laws, know the rules and leave that American sense of I can do anything, at home, in America.
When in Rome..........

 

[DaisyJ]

No, but I think they do travel with the expectation that the US State Dept will use diplomatic means to try and bring them home if something bad happens.

There is good reason why the United States doesn't have an embassy in North Korea. That should be anyone's first clue it isn't a country safe for American tourists.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Not since my late teens and a visit to Tijuana and the Mexican border towns have I traveled outside of the country, mainly because my DH refuses to do so. IMO, while the headline grabbers such as this story are rare, I always assumed that if one left the US to travel anywhere, they were pretty much on their own.

There was a Criminal Minds spin off the past couple of years "Beyond Borders" that dealt with a "team" that would travel internationally to investigate kidnappings/murder that took place outside of the US. I viewed the show as complete fiction. I am sure there are instances where the US can and will get involved but IMO its certainly not a guarantee and not something I would bank on.

There are some parts of this world that are just not safe and its prudent to stay away. There have been stories of students/journalist nabbed near borders etc. Just, IMO stay away. If one feels they must take this risk, then for goodness sake, behave! Know the laws, know the rules and leave that American sense of I can do anything, at home, in America.
When in Rome..........

I understand what you are saying but I think the bolded is naive thinking for someone like NK. There's really nothing besides a useless, grainy video and an obviously forced confession in the case of Otto. The confession doesn't even make sense when viewed with the video. There really isn't anything believable that says Otto didn't behave.
While I do agree that travellers needs to behave and follow the rules and laws of the places they are visiting, in a place like NK behaving isn't going to get you home safe.

 

[rigs32]

Read the State Department warnings regarding travel to NK:

https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings/north-korea-travel-warning.html

It's from early May, so well before Warmbier was returned.

After reading that, no way would I go there.

 

[cabanafrau]

There is good reason why the United States doesn't have an embassy in North Korea. That should be anyone's first clue it isn't a country safe for American tourists.

I understand what you are saying but I think the bolded is naive thinking for someone like NK. There's really nothing besides a useless, grainy video and an obviously forced confession in the case of Otto. The confession doesn't even make sense when viewed with the video. There really isn't anything believable that says Otto didn't behave.
While I do agree that travellers needs to behave and follow the rules and laws of the places they are visiting, in a place like NK behaving isn't going to get you home safe.

People are completely expendable there. They have too many, with too few resources and not enough food. The mindset is vastly different from what we would understand.

 

[pryncess527]

There is good reason why the United States doesn't have an embassy in North Korea. That should be anyone's first clue it isn't a country safe for American tourists.

Yet we did in fact use diplomatic efforts to try and bring him home. I agree it isn't safe, but the expectation some tourists have that State will take efforts to help should you get in trouble isn't without basis.

Read the State Department warnings regarding travel to NK:

https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings/north-korea-travel-warning.html

It's from early May, so well before Warmbier was returned.

After reading that, no way would I go there.

I agree, their warning is enough to scare me off. But it also falls short of an actual ban.

 

[mamacatnv]

I understand what you are saying but I think the bolded is naive thinking for someone like NK. There's really nothing besides a useless, grainy video and an obviously forced confession in the case of Otto. The confession doesn't even make sense when viewed with the video. There really isn't anything believable that says Otto didn't behave.
While I do agree that travellers needs to behave and follow the rules and laws of the places they are visiting, in a place like NK behaving isn't going to get you home safe.

Thus the reason I said Just stay away. There are places that are not safe regardless of what one does or doesn't do, those are the places that IMO one should just avoid altogether but then, I'm not a risk taker, I don't have the need to push the envelope.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Rodman had absolutely nothing to do with his release. Joseph Yun is the one that was most involved.

You say that with such conviction! How do any of us know for sure?

I admit it sounds bizarre, but I also think it's a distinct possibility.

Why wouldn't the U.S. use whatever resources we can?

1) http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-rodman-west-point-20160303-story.html

"Liam Collins, the director of the Modern War Institute at West Point, who had issued the invitation to Rodman, asked directly whether Rodman thought he had a role to play as an emissary between the United States and North Korea in the same way that “ping-pong diplomacy” opened doors with China.

His agent, Chris Volo, was enthusiastic. “Dennis would do anything for President Trump.… He would go back there in a second, if it ended up helping our nation, helping our president,’’ said Volo."

2) http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-rodman-north-korea-20170613-story.html

"On Tuesday, finally came news that the 23-year-old had been released and late that night had arrived in his native Ohio.

The news of the release also came amid a bizarre coincidence: the arrival of former basketball star Dennis Rodman, who had landed in North Korea on Tuesday.

Rodman had tweeted a link with a photo of himself holding a ticket for Air Koryo, North Korea’s state-owned airline, and wrote, “I’m back.” It quickly fueled speculation that Rodman had helped secure Warmbier’s release, given Rodman’s previous trips to the reclusive nation and his public support for President Trump.

But State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert denied Rodman had anything to do with it, and when asked about his trip there, she said, "We strongly, strongly suggest Americans not travel to North Korea."

an administration official said that Secretary of State Rex Tillerson had begun briefing the president on Warmbier’s case in February and that the president directed Tillerson to attempt to secure the release of Americans held in North Korea.

By May, a State Department special representative for North Korea policy met high-level representatives from the North Korean Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Oslo, and they agreed that the Swedish Embassy in Pyongyang, the North Korean capital, would be authorized to pay a consular visit to all four detainees.

This month, State Department Special Representative Joseph Yun met in New York City with North Korea’s ambassador to the United Nations. That’s when U.S. officials first learned Warmbier was in a coma.

Between June 6 and 11, Tillerson told Yun to prepare to travel to North Korea with the intent of bringing Warmbier back to the United States. The State Department got a medical team and plane while North Korea was told a delegation would travel to Pyongyang."

I guess we'll have to see how it plays out.

 

[Adkeesee]

I think most people will understand we could've, we just chose not to. I'm also just not sure about that angle anyway. They probably freaked out when whatever happened, happened, knowing it was going to eventually be a huge international incident. Someone's head probably literally rolled over whatever caused him to become anoxic.

Most people in the US and every other civilized nation will certainly understand that. However, the poor people of NK are brainwashed by their "leader" so I'm sure he will spin it that way for them. Just another way to let his people think that we are inferior to NK

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Most people in the US and every other civilized nation will certainly understand that. However, the poor people of NK are brainwashed by their "leader" so I'm sure he will spin it that way for them. Just another way to let his people think that we are inferior to NK

I think that many people there know the truth, as well. Word of life outside of NK is smuggled in and passed around.