Crohns and DAS = denied. MODERATOR NOTE: No diagnosis is automatically allowed or denied for DAS. DAS is issued based on needs, not diagnosis

[OurBigTrip]

It isn't a common misconception. There are now 2 court rulings that take a dim view of the accommodation that DAS provides. Both say nothing in ADA obligates Disney or any theme park or other business to provide alternate line waiting experiences. The first ruling was in the middle of the 2013 DAS lawsuit issued (and held in abeyance by the 11th circuit) and the other was the October 19, 2022 ruling which cannot be appealed that says the same thing. Someone could start a new lawsuit but that scam of a plaintiff's lawyer in the last case stipulated that DAS is an undue burden on businesses. So now Disney has that defense as a matter of legal record. How do you think the 11th will rule next time? How about SCOTUS? Neither are going to side with interpretations of law by regulatory agencies. Chevron is dead and West Virgjna v EPA burned the body of Chevron.

Pretty sure that neither case said Disney didn’t have to provide line accommodations. Rather they said that it would disrupt park operations for Disney to do what the plaintiffs asked for. The court found DAS an adequate accommodation.

 

[nalabear]

I do agree that the two advanced selections is an unnecessary, though welcomed, nice thing. Disney probably didn't realize the amount of incentive it would create for people to try to game the system.

I wouldn't mind it being rescinded if it lowers the online wait times--waited 3.5 hours for DAS at WDW last weekend.

While Group C folk do exist, Disney realizes the benefit that DAS does provide to segment that otherwise would have a very difficult time to access large sections of the parks successfully.

 

[Jnjtrio]

we were just at Disneyland last week and were told by guest services that IBS (and the symptoms that go with it and Chrones ) are being removed from the list and we will not be able to renew our das going forward. Not sure how long that will last once they have to start cleaning up messes in the line.

Well if this is true we can stop talking about buying DVC at our house. We have been seriously considering purchase with new DVC disneyland hotel.

 

[DisneyOma]

And I explained that Disney had always been a safe, happy escape for us, and this ridiculous process made Disney planning a stressful nightmare (among other Disney choices lately).

You don't have to do the online registration - you can choose to go to guest services at the parks to request DAS.

 

[DLgal]

I did want to add, when we renewed the DAS, the CM helping us VERY clearly and firmly said:

"Please do not tell me a diagnosis. I need to know what challenges exist with waiting in lines."

So they do seem to be cracking down on simply using a diagnosed condition as an entry point to the discussion. They don't even want to hear it and will disregard that part of your explanation.

 

[SteveMouse]

One condition I have is a perfect example of why one can’t rely on diagnosis alone to describe impacts. My muscles quite litterslly turn into bone. Permanently. it is a progressive condition,

At 6, I could no longer lift either arm above my head. Both shoulders had fused. At 9, my left leg became partially fused at the hip. At 10. couldn’t “run.” Along the way, my jaw has frozen, as has my neck. my other hip, my neck, and more.

Each change has required an adjustment. It’s still under one disease definition.

 

[DisSurfer878]

Great insight - but I would add that there are also users who might (on a good day) look like a "C", but on the very next day, be an "A" - not all days in the life of a disability are linear or predictable.

We've probably been at the parks 20+ days since diagnosis, and if I recall, my kiddo probably had 1 or 2 days where we spent a full day in the park, doing almost what we used to do "before". Then we've probably had at least 5-7 where we had a very limited park experience, and the rest of the days somewhere in the middle. Factors can include weather, sunlight, and a multitude of other random and uncontrollable issues.

In any event, not everyone fits neatly into once of those groups. Maybe the true cheaters are always cheaters, but those legitimate users' needs vary. I do know/feel strongly that the original FastPass system would have/did work MUCH better for us; and that Disney unintentionally created this problem by charging for what used to be free.

This is so true. Our DAS holder has had "C" days and then the very next day an "A" day.

It's actually a general frustration of mine, people asking how they're doing "now". This condition is day to day. Yes when it first started it was at it's worst, but just because today they're okay does not mean that two days ago was good, and so "now" is so relative.

And in terms of planning for DAS, we don't even know 24 hours in advance what kind of day they'll be having. It's impossible to know. "Winging it" just isn't realistic.

 

[jo-jo]

I think that one of the issues is that there are many different types of DAS users, and no one (besides Disney if they cared to look) has any way of knowing how big the populations are. Furthermore, one's perception of DAS probably varies significantly based on his/her own lived experience.

Simplistically, let's pretend that there are 3 types of users:

A: Severely disabled - this group struggles may only be able to manage a couple of rides even with accommodations. I would be willing to go out on a limb and say that no one would really complain about life being made slightly easier for this group.

B: "Average" DAS users - this group faces challenges, but with help may be able to have something resembling a "normal" Disney experience. Number of rides and quality of the experience depends on the day/individual. Eg. I have a friend who is a DAS user who can rope drop AND close the park, but others on the board find advanced selections too challenging and only manage a few rides before having to leave.

C: DAS cheaters (or more charitably those who don't REALLY need accommodations) - perhaps lured by the idea of the 2 advance selections or just the idea of maximizing park time, this group lies/stretches the truth in order to get accommodations. Without having any real limitations, they sign up for the best rides they can in advance, and then will book in park reservations for headliners while they stand in line for other rides, watch a show, eat, or shop. This group clearly has a better than "normal" park experience.

Because so many disabilities/limitations are not visible, it's impossible to know who is a B and who is a C. Disney does their best, but cast members are not perfect and it would be foolish to pretend that the C bucket does not exist. I have said this before but the advanced selection piece is the part that really bothers me because it is not available through Genie+ and gives a very strong incentive for "C" families to try to game the system, thus degrading the experience for DAS and non-DAS users alike.

Not sure DH would fit in any of these categories. Last two trips we got DAS for him. But aside the reason it was granted, he can no longer do any rides where the belt can’t be stopped ( balance issue), boats without some type of aid (like small world), or tight closed in rides like mission space or mine train. Knees just don’t bend and arthritis in spine. This next trip it will be show heavy. And as it is, we have 5 parks days and 7 resort/rest days.

I wouldn’t care if Disney dropped the two pre trip rides. I just like to know ahead of time, so we can plan.

 

[Sillysox]

I think that one of the issues is that there are many different types of DAS users, and no one (besides Disney if they cared to look) has any way of knowing how big the populations are. Furthermore, one's perception of DAS probably varies significantly based on his/her own lived experience.

Simplistically, let's pretend that there are 3 types of users:

A: Severely disabled - this group struggles may only be able to manage a couple of rides even with accommodations. I would be willing to go out on a limb and say that no one would really complain about life being made slightly easier for this group.

B: "Average" DAS users - this group faces challenges, but with help may be able to have something resembling a "normal" Disney experience. Number of rides and quality of the experience depends on the day/individual. Eg. I have a friend who is a DAS user who can rope drop AND close the park, but others on the board find advanced selections too challenging and only manage a few rides before having to leave.

C: DAS cheaters (or more charitably those who don't REALLY need accommodations) - perhaps lured by the idea of the 2 advance selections or just the idea of maximizing park time, this group lies/stretches the truth in order to get accommodations. Without having any real limitations, they sign up for the best rides they can in advance, and then will book in park reservations for headliners while they stand in line for other rides, watch a show, eat, or shop. This group clearly has a better than "normal" park experience.

Because so many disabilities/limitations are not visible, it's impossible to know who is a B and who is a C. Disney does their best, but cast members are not perfect and it would be foolish to pretend that the C bucket does not exist. I have said this before but the advanced selection piece is the part that really bothers me because it is not available through Genie+ and gives a very strong incentive for "C" families to try to game the system, thus degrading the experience for DAS and non-DAS users alike.

chiming in here because my husband I believes falls much more into the A category than the B, yet since it is invisible I fear he will not be allowed the DAS pass. he is on permanent disability due to his very severe chronic fatigue and anxiety and depression, and body pain which are so limiting that at home he has (as stated by a specialist) only about 2-4 useable hours in the day to do anything besides rest, including day to day issues such as eat, shower etc. Being in one position for any length of time makes his pain much worse. We have rented a mobility scooter (just walking to the turnstiles would pretty much deplete his energy for the day) and have bought Genie +, and there's a lot of rides he will not be able to ride regardless of the queue.. (jerky ones that will exacerbate his body pain)..... but STILL even with all this i am afraid he will spend the entire day in the hotel room, missing most if not entire days of our trip (which is a very special trip as we last went 10 years ago--who knows if we'll get there again before another 10 years.) He's really only going because he wants to see our youngest two daughters experience Disneyland for the first time, see their faces as they ride different rides for the first time! My problem is I've been advised and read in lots of places that they don't really give DAS for energy issues. They think it can be solved by a scooter, but it can't. He has x amount of energy and it's gone when it's gone. Being in busy crowded lines will tire him out faster and ramp up his anxiety, even while in his scooter.... A das would probably allow him to actually ride a handful of rides vs probably only one or two before his energy window is depleted for the day. I'm trying to help him gear up to ask for the DAS pass. I absolutely believe it is a needed accomodation for him but I don't know if they will dismiss it because of biases about 'energy issues' (cuz--duh, EVERYONE has energy issues at a theme park right? But his are not normal energy issues, they are severe, exacerbated by severe anxiety and chronic pain and I dont' know how to get him to explain that.)

 

[lanejudy]

My problem is I've been advised and read in lots of places that they don't really give DAS for energy issues. ... But his are not normal energy issues, they are severe, exacerbated by severe anxiety and chronic pain and I dont' know how to get him to explain that.)

I recommend thinking through how you/he can separate his issues into sort of buckets:
X = anxiety (or other non-pain/energy/stamina issue)
Y = pain
Z = energy/stamina

Focus on a queue environment, not everything else (not transportation, jerky rides, distance across the parks, daily living tasks, etc.) because DAS does not accommodate for those things. Just the queue environment. And then focus on the needs specifically related to X in a queue environment -- forgetting the others even exist (especially if requesting in advance where they will not see the ECV). Plus if he's asked, he should be prepared to explain how the ECV doesn't help with X even though it helps with Y and Z.

 

[SteveMouse]

Even if that was the case, having a disabling condition doesn’t automatically mean eligibility for DAS. There are plenty of disabling conditions that don’t qualify for DAS.

Actually, its more like there are some Disney guests whose disabilities cannot be met with the DAS.. Disney may provide these guests with other accommodations when the accommodation does not overburden business operations.

 

[OurBigTrip]

Actually, its more like there are some Disney guests whose disabilities cannot be met with the DAS.. Disney may provide these guests with other accommodations when the accommodation does not overburden business operations.

Same thing

 

[ttintagel]

My guess is that the advance selections are a carrot to encourage use of the new online registration system, and that once people are used to it the carrot will be dropped.

 

[HopperFan]

I believe the point trying to be made is when 'others' look at DAS holders and believe DAS holders have some advantage in experiencing the parks

It reminds me of our DS' kindergarten teacher when one of his neurotypical typical said 'Not fair, I wish I had one of those iPads to type on', their teacher took a moment for a real life teaching moment on going through a day only using a keypad as means of communication.

No, you most likely don't want to walk a day in a DAS holder's shoes.

DAS holders most definitely have an advantage in experiencing the parks. Whether they choose or are able to do so obviously differs from guest to guest. Bt there is no question that there is an advantage.

I think the biggest advantage is the two in advance per day. When folks used to be able to book 3 FP+ per day and now they have to pay for anything - they are going to look at the DAS as an option. Social media is sadly full of "how to obtain" instructions. I think it's much easier (for those who are committing fraud) to do their act online rather than in person, especially if there is a child they can just pull in for a photo without them hearing what is said.

We have never done online in advance because honestly one of the reasons we get it is likely going to work against us - committing to a park and specific time. Odds are we'd not make half of them. I think if those two advance were not offered, most those who are not being honest wouldn't bother.

I do think in park DAS we do now have a disadvantage with the new operations and Genie+ high usage. We now wait longer than standby guests, sometimes long enough that it makes a legit difference. I still greatly appreciate the safety outside the line.

 

[gap2368]

chiming in here because my husband I believes falls much more into the A category than the B, yet since it is invisible I fear he will not be allowed the DAS pass. he is on permanent disability due to his very severe chronic fatigue and anxiety and depression, and body pain which are so limiting that at home he has (as stated by a specialist) only about 2-4 useable hours in the day to do anything besides rest, including day to day issues such as eat, shower etc. Being in one position for any length of time makes his pain much worse. We have rented a mobility scooter (just walking to the turnstiles would pretty much deplete his energy for the day) and have bought Genie +, and there's a lot of rides he will not be able to ride regardless of the queue.. (jerky ones that will exacerbate his body pain)..... but STILL even with all this i am afraid he will spend the entire day in the hotel room, missing most if not entire days of our trip (which is a very special trip as we last went 10 years ago--who knows if we'll get there again before another 10 years.) He's really only going because he wants to see our youngest two daughters experience Disneyland for the first time, see their faces as they ride different rides for the first time! My problem is I've been advised and read in lots of places that they don't really give DAS for energy issues. They think it can be solved by a scooter, but it can't. He has x amount of energy and it's gone when it's gone. Being in busy crowded lines will tire him out faster and ramp up his anxiety, even while in his scooter.... A das would probably allow him to actually ride a handful of rides vs probably only one or two before his energy window is depleted for the day. I'm trying to help him gear up to ask for the DAS pass. I absolutely believe it is a needed accomodation for him but I don't know if they will dismiss it because of biases about 'energy issues' (cuz--duh, EVERYONE has energy issues at a theme park right? But his are not normal energy issues, they are severe, exacerbated by severe anxiety and chronic pain and I dont' know how to get him to explain that.)

think about why he can not wait in the standby line and how waiting outside of it would help him

 

[OurBigTrip]

think about why he can not wait in the standby line and how waiting outside of it would help him

But without mentioning stamina or pain.

 

[notatallmagic]

You don't have to do the online registration - you can choose to go to guest services at the parks to request DAS.

The challenge is that if DAS isn't granted, we can't do the parks. Since we are from out of state, that would be a trip killer. At least the advance registration (and potential rejection of DAS) would now allow us to cancel any Disney plans and go to Universal.

Prior to our Universal adventure, we could at least cancel resort reservations at 30 days, and just lose money on our airfare.

 

[SueM in MN]

It isn't a common misconception. There are now 2 court rulings that take a dim view of the accommodation that DAS provides. Both say nothing in ADA obligates Disney or any theme park or other business to provide alternate line waiting experiences. The first ruling was in the middle of the 2013 DAS lawsuit issued (and held in abeyance by the 11th circuit) and the other was the October 19, 2022 ruling which cannot be appealed that says the same thing. Someone could start a new lawsuit but that scam of a plaintiff's lawyer in the last case stipulated that DAS is an undue burden on businesses. So now Disney has that defense as a matter of legal record. How do you think the 11th will rule next time? How about SCOTUS? Neither are going to side with interpretations of law by regulatory agencies. Chevron is dead and West Virgjna v EPA burned the body of Chevron.

That is not what the ruling said. This is a quote from the ruling.
“Based on the foregoing, the Court concludes that A.L.’s proposed modification of ten readmission passes or unlimited access to the FastPass lines is not “necessary” to accommodate A.L.’s preference to follow a route or a pre-set list of rides and the modification is not reasonable. Moreover, requiring the modification, based on the history of the former system, would lead to fraud and overuse, lengthen the wait times significantly for nondisabled guests, and fundamentally alter Disney’s business model.”

DAS does not provide immediate access to attractions. Guests using DAS are given a Return Time roughly equal to the current posted wait in the Standby Line. DAS allows waiting outside of the Standby Line. After the Return Time comes, guests using DAS enter thru the Lightning Lane.

The plaintiffs claimed DAS did not meet their needs and the only accommodation that would was 10 readmission passes for their entire party for each visit and unlimited access to the Fastpass lines without waiting.
The judge ruled the plaintiff had NOT proved that level of accommodation was necessary, that Disney HAD shown what the plaintiffs wanted was NOT a “reasonable accommodation“ and that DAS was a reasonable accommodation. I’m sure @jcb will correct me if I have misstated anything.

Pretty sure that neither case said Disney didn’t have to provide line accommodations. Rather they said that it would disrupt park operations for Disney to do what the plaintiffs asked for. The court found DAS an adequate accommodation.

Agree

 

[jcb]

That is not what the ruling said. This is a quote from the ruling.
“Based on the foregoing, the Court concludes that A.L.’s proposed modification of ten readmission passes or unlimited access to the FastPass lines is not “necessary” to accommodate A.L.’s preference to follow a route or a pre-set list of rides and the modification is not reasonable. Moreover, requiring the modification, based on the history of the former system, would lead to fraud and overuse, lengthen the wait times significantly for nondisabled guests, and fundamentally alter Disney’s business model.”

DAS does not provide immediate access to attractions. Guests using DAS are given a Return Time roughly equal to the current posted wait in the Standby Line. DAS allows waiting outside of the Standby Line. After the Return Time comes, guests using DAS enter thru the Lightning Lane.

The plaintiffs claimed DAS did not meet their needs and the only accommodation that would was 10 readmission passes for their entire party for each visit and unlimited access to the Fastpass lines without waiting.
The judge ruled the plaintiff had NOT proved that level of accommodation was necessary, that Disney HAD shown what the plaintiffs wanted was NOT a “reasonable accommodation“ and that DAS was a reasonable accommodation. I’m sure @jcb will correct me if I have misstated anything.


Agree

I agree with you. Plus, I have already addressed the assertions repeated here (see post 39 and 42) and I have been ignored so I don't really feel a need to repeat myself. And if there isn't a Disboards rule against discussing Chevron deference, there should be. . . .

 

[BroganMc]

I have Crohn's and it's bad right now. I'm supposed to go to Disneyland soon, first time in years.

I read the disability access page on Disneyland's website and thought that was me as I'm going to have a very hard time standing in any line, because it's so bad now I have to go when I have to go, and that could be several times an hour. I dont want to deal with getting in and out of line around people and worrying about how quickly I could get to a bathroom or making people mad when I got back in line and try to find my family.

I did the video chat and was denied DAS. The rep was completely condescending. Told me I shouldn't believe what I watch on tiktok because this is a Tiktok trend, among other very condescending things.

I'm really upset and don't want to go any more because I will be too stressed out worrying about having an accident.

I've read here that others with Crohn's have gotten approved. How can I get DAS so I can do this trip to Disneyland?

It is extremely unprofessional for that cast member to go on a rant about something happening on TikTok. Frankly I hate TikTok for many reasons but this cast member dwelling on it is completely wrong. I would report her. She needs talking to.

Second of all, many people are reporting the online interview process is completely focused on autism. I think cast members who run this are highly trained on autism issues and not on many other issues. So they become extremely suspicious of any other condition.

I have never used the online system. I always go to the park and talk to guest relations in person. It's much easier for me to explain my needs and for them to understand them. I have not had a problem since doing that.

The friends who has IBS and request a pass for the same reason. Or at least many of the same reasons. She does not have issues. You just got a very bad cast member experience. Don't let it ruin your trip.

Cast members in general are wonderful but sometimes you get that oddball. That's what training is for.

As for a TikTok trend of people claiming IBS. You knew this was going to happen. We all knew this was going to happen. As soon as the program came out and people realized DAS was going to give you a free option to do many of the same things, they were going to find ways to cheat the system. Unfortunately HIPPA does not allow Disney to require any documentation to prove disability. No doctor's notes. Nothing that would actually validate the request.