Maui

[anniemae]

I think tourists should rearrange their visit to other islands.

Apparently there was some conflicting advice issued. At first they said nobody should go to Maui. Now they changed it to nobody should go to west maui. I guess the Governor, the Police Dept and the tourist board are saying different things. Personally, I think Maui should be avoided for now.

 

[TinkAgainU]

I'm guessing a lot of lessons are going to be learned after this massive tragedy.

Agreed. It appears a lot that California has learned about home hardening could be utilized when Hawaii rebuilds - but Californians will hopefully learn from this too. Timely evacuation was the #1 means of survival, yet I never cease to be amazed how many people receive ample warning and still wait to leave during our California fires

 

[Chili327]

Agreed. It appears a lot that California has learned about home hardening could be utilized when Hawaii rebuilds - but Californians will hopefully learn from this too. Timely evacuation was the #1 means of survival, yet I never cease to be amazed how many people receive ample warning and still wait to leave during our California fires

Very true.. I lived in Paradise when their fire happened... and was amazed at how many made the decision to stay up there, instead of evacuate.

 

[dvcgirl67]

Agreed. It appears a lot that California has learned about home hardening could be utilized when Hawaii rebuilds - but Californians will hopefully learn from this too. Timely evacuation was the #1 means of survival, yet I never cease to be amazed how many people receive ample warning and still wait to leave during our California fires

I would be terrified to stay. And my DH's house burned down when he was a teenager....in the middle of the night. They all got out, but it's traumatizing. I can't even imagine losing my house *and* my town. Sadly, I think this fire moved so quickly that some older folks in particular weren't able to get out. People have described that some of those who succumbed are literally ash....that it looks like Pompeii.

I heard a resident on MSNBC today (which I can hear on Sirius...dropped cable), say that some homeowners in Lahaina are already receiving phone calls from real estate investors....which is so sad. Resolve is very strong now, that their town is "not for sale". The woman said she hoped people would continue to donate so they could rebuild their town. But that won't happen.

The realities of the situation will likely be that for many, they're underinsured to the point that they won't be able to rebuild. Some will have no choice but to take that cash and move on with their lives. Property is so valuable that if real estate investors step in to pay a boatload just for the land, some people will inevitably sell because the offers will be too good to turn down.

 

[Lumpy1106]

So tired of hearing the conspiracy theories on this one. 80 MPH winds, overhead power lines - there's your smoking gun. They finally learned in CA after Paradise and the AC is shut down during high winds now. Would that have prevented this fire? I think so - there are lots of videos out that people took of the winds prior to the fire - the winds were not all that unexpected.

It's absolutely heart-breaking to hear the stories of the traffic mess. The law enforcement blocked egress routes to control traffic, then when that didn't work everyone got trapped. Not only that, parents were unable to return home to get their kids - because the roads were closed. School was out, parents still had to work and Maui is safe - no danger of leaving the kids at home. That's where I would have been when I was a kid (at home by myself, that is).

 

[Lumpy1106]

Agreed. It appears a lot that California has learned about home hardening could be utilized when Hawaii rebuilds - but Californians will hopefully learn from this too. Timely evacuation was the #1 means of survival, yet I never cease to be amazed how many people receive ample warning and still wait to leave during our California fires

Not sure about Paradise or Lahaina, but my Aunt and Uncle evacuated during one of the Laguna Beach fires. They were unable to return home for weeks even though their home was untouched. That would give me second-thoughts about evacuating.

 

[bcla]

They need food and resources more for the time being. They don't need tourists eating all the food and drinking all the bottled water.

Really? This is an island dependent on a tourist economy with imostly intact resources to feed and house tourists. FEMA, the state, and private aid agencies are already there to provide food and water for those who have been displaced.

Maybe 10% of the population is dealing with damaged/destroyed housing. But avoiding the rest of Maui in a few weeks would seem to me like tourists avoiding San Francisco when there were fires in Napa Valley. There are areas that probably shouldn't be visited. For instance, Haleakala National Park is closed until at least August 16, but I think that has more to do with the Kula Fire.

 

[bcla]

Not sure about Paradise or Lahaina, but my Aunt and Uncle evacuated during one of the Laguna Beach fires. They were unable to return home for weeks even though their home was untouched. That would give me second-thoughts about evacuating.

And risk death or injury? I would evacuate and worry about whether or not I might have an intact house later.

 

[Dan Murphy]

People who lost their houses found out that because the housing market went crazy they were underinsured.

The realities of the situation will likely be that for many, they're underinsured to the point that they won't be able to rebuild. Some will have no choice but to take that cash and move on with their lives.

Keep in mind that the insured value is relative to the rebuilding cost, not the market cost. In a place like Lahaina, such a desirable location, the market value of aa house would be substantially higher than the rebuilding cost. Example, Marie has an aunt in suburban LA. 2 bedroom, 1 bd, 1,100 sq ft., built 1949. Market value now is $1,150,000. I've been in the house. No way would it be over a $1 million to rebuild that house, with today's standards, for anything near that. You need to be insured for rebuilding cost, not market value cost.

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[Lumpy1106]

And risk death or injury? I would evacuate and worry about whether or not I might have an intact house later.

Oh, I'd evacuate, sure, but I can understand why some might choose to stay behind and protect their property. It's not that much different from someone who doesn't evacuate ahead of a hurricane.

Lahaina and Paradise I really don't think fit in this category though. Those fires moved in so fast.

 

[Chili327]

And risk death or injury? I would evacuate and worry about whether or not I might have an intact house later.

Yes, that's exactly what we did. And good thing, because i don't think there was anything we could do unless we had been soaking the house in water for 2 days prior. lol

 

[bcla]

Yes, that's exactly what we did. And good thing, because i don't think there was anything we could do unless we had been soaking the house in water for 2 days prior. lol

I witnessed the Oakland-Berkeley Hills fire of 1991. Not up close and personal, but it was hard to miss that orange glow. I'm acutely aware of how dangerous and fast fire can spread.

But there might be ways to prevent damage. There are private firefighting companies that will use protective fire retardant foam that will protect for maybe a couple of weeks, but is rather messy. It's not as if most people want their homes covered in this stuff just in case, but it might make sense before a fire. They're usually hired by insurers to protect their insured properties. And they've come under criticism by those thinking they were somehow public firefighters who were only helping out with specific properties.

https://www.independent.com/2017/12/20/thomas-fire-reveals-rise-privatized-firefighting/

 

[monsterkitty]

A girlfriend of mine lives on Maui and her family was evacuated with just what they could grab. While their rental is still standing they've been unable to return to it. They just moved in earlier this month and had begun unpacking process. Their new landlord is being a real pill, complaining that the ash and soot inside the home is negligence from them not closing all windows before they fled. When they returned to check on their home, they found the landlord had taped a note to the door informing them that they changed the door lock code so that they could not return. Leaving them without resources. It's just blow after blow for some evacuees.

This happened in the Marshall fire here as well. However, it was because the landlords were told the house was inhabitable, even though it had no visible damage but the smoke damage made the air quality to harmful to live in.

If the landlord is truly being a jerk, have your friend contact the local new media because the media would jump all over that. The landlord will change their tune in a heartbeat with one call from a news station.

 

[dvcgirl67]

Keep in mind that the insured value is relative to the rebuilding cost, not the market cost. In a place like Lahaina, such a desirable location, the market value of aa house would be substantially higher than the rebuilding cost. Example, Marie has an aunt in suburban LA. 2 bedroom, 1 bd, 1,100 sq ft., built 1949. Market value now is $1,150,000. I've been in the house. No way would it be over a $1 million to rebuild that house, with today's standards, for anything near that. You need to be insured for rebuilding cost, not market value cost.

spelling​

Yes, I know what you're saying Dan. What I was thinking is that people will still be underinsured because many underestimate what it will cost to rebuild....at least that's what USAA told us with respect to our home. We'd had All State for years and when we switched over to USAA (My Dad was in the Navy and they opened up enrollment to family members of those who served), they told us we were underinsured based on the cost to rebuild.

I also know that in my area, especially two of the priciest towns near me, people with older homes don't even bother listing their homes as there are builders in the area who are known to buy these old homes, knock them down and build McMansions that are ridiculously big for the lots. I believe that is the kind of thing that may happen in Lahaina.

 

[monsterkitty]

I would be terrified to stay. And my DH's house burned down when he was a teenager....in the middle of the night. They all got out, but it's traumatizing. I can't even imagine losing my house *and* my town. Sadly, I think this fire moved so quickly that some older folks in particular weren't able to get out. People have described that some of those who succumbed are literally ash....that it looks like Pompeii.

I heard a resident on MSNBC today (which I can hear on Sirius...dropped cable), say that some homeowners in Lahaina are already receiving phone calls from real estate investors....which is so sad. Resolve is very strong now, that their town is "not for sale". The woman said she hoped people would continue to donate so they could rebuild their town. But that won't happen.

The realities of the situation will likely be that for many, they're underinsured to the point that they won't be able to rebuild. Some will have no choice but to take that cash and move on with their lives. Property is so valuable that if real estate investors step in to pay a boatload just for the land, some people will inevitably sell because the offers will be too good to turn down.

Keep in mind that the insured value is relative to the rebuilding cost, not the market cost. In a place like Lahaina, such a desirable location, the market value of aa house would be substantially higher than the rebuilding cost. Example, Marie has an aunt in suburban LA. 2 bedroom, 1 bd, 1,100 sq ft., built 1949. Market value now is $1,150,000. I've been in the house. No way would it be over a $1 million to rebuild that house, with today's standards, for anything near that. You need to be insured for rebuilding cost, not market value cost.

spelling​

For many here that had to walk away from their burned houses because they were underinsured, it was the cost have building materials and labor that made them unable to rebuild. It wasn't the property value.

The biggest issue will be, as it is here, the insurance companies denying claim after claim because that's how they operate.

 

[Chili327]

I also know that in my area, especially two of the priciest towns near me, people with older homes don't even bother listing their homes as there are builders in the area who are known to buy these old homes, knock them down and build McMansions that are ridiculously big for the lots. I believe that is the kind of thing that may happen in Lahaina.

Hermosa Beach?

I hate what's happened there.

 

[Marrila]

Yes, I know what you're saying Dan. What I was thinking is that people will still be underinsured because many underestimate what it will cost to rebuild....at least that's what USAA told us with respect to our home. We'd had All State for years and when we switched over to USAA (My Dad was in the Navy and they opened up enrollment to family members of those who served), they told us we were underinsured based on the cost to rebuild.

I also know that in my area, especially two of the priciest towns near me, people with older homes don't even bother listing their homes as there are builders in the area who are known to buy these old homes, knock them down and build McMansions that are ridiculously big for the lots. I believe that is the kind of thing that may happen in Lahaina.

Rebuilding on an island is so expensive. Goods arrive via containers and when home after home will need everything it's a difficult and lengthy task.
Sadly, I think you are right about what may happen with small to medium lots.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Yes, I know what you're saying Dan. What I was thinking is that people will still be underinsured because many underestimate what it will cost to rebuild....at least that's what USAA told us with respect to our home. We'd had All State for years and when we switched over to USAA (My Dad was in the Navy and they opened up enrollment to family members of those who served), they told us we were underinsured based on the cost to rebuild.

I also know that in my area, especially two of the priciest towns near me, people with older homes don't even bother listing their homes as there are builders in the area who are known to buy these old homes, knock them down and build McMansions that are ridiculously big for the lots. I believe that is the kind of thing that may happen in Lahaina.

Well the thing is insureds usually aren't making up what their home cost is. Computers are. It would mean that an insured specifically reduced their coverage below what the software said it should be. Many policies already include around 25% in addition for replacement cost (for standard homeowner's insurance) which helps in the interim of one's insurance policy renewal.

Our house renews next month for insurance and what they are insuring it for is $123,000 more than last years...inflation guard is on there plus the cost of rebuilding has gone up. It's insured for approximately $217,000 more than what the county assessed the property as of January 1st of this year. We don't do anything to the policy and every year no matter what company it adjusts according to inflation and rebuilding costs (and we've been with multiple companies).

When I was at the insurance company I did see some people opt to go under that amount strictly for premium really but they could only go to a certain level before you simply couldn't insure the home for that low.

While Hawaii and other places are different in my area it would be rarer for the concrete basement to be completely ruined so at least that aspect would help out (repairs sure but a full excavation and pouring unlikely).

I think for Hawaii the more unique part is the isolation creates issues to get building supplies, at least lumber is better than it used to be. So I could see on that front for the residents rebuilding is just not feasible depending on one's individual situation. In general if one is not rebuilding you get ACV for the property. But I wouldn't leap to that the majority of people are underinsured. Keep in mind when you're switching companies not every company uses the same software and it's time sensitive. If you're switching right around your renewal close to a year has already gone by and figures change. Remember when lumber was stupid high? Yeah I can bet people who got homeowner's insurance during that time had quite a high figure.

Outside of the pandemic it would be pretty rare for someone to be underinsured badly especially en masse unless they specifically chose to as most policies adjust as the years go on.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

They need food and resources more for the time being. They don't need tourists eating all the food and drinking all the bottled water.

It's a bit hard here because when only the portion of a place is impacted the economic factors may come into play.

We were in Athens with wildfires (although not near the city center) and there was never any word about how no one should go. Rhodes on the other hand yeah that was a place no tourist should have been going to because they were evacuating tends of thousands of people but there were ones who landed and were promptly taken against their will to refugee places with no information being given to them. Corfu was a place we had just been to a day or two before they had wildfires but only a portion of the island was ever impacted (it happened to be pretty close to where we were at though).

Would I go to Maui now? Well no not in the next few weeks and would avoid Lahaina for longer but I don't think it's as cut and dried about presuming locals will starve and have issues with scarcity of food and drink either. Where do you suppose all those people in the tourist industry will get their income from? They have bills to pay too and right now probably even more scared of how long they can sustain themselves on their current bank accounts if no one comes for a long enough time.

It's just a rock and a hard place right now and tourism has to walk that fine line both economically and ethically.

 

[dvcgirl67]

It's a bit hard here because when only the portion of a place is impacted the economic factors may come into play.

We were in Athens with wildfires (although not near the city center) and there was never any word about how no one should go. Rhodes on the other hand yeah that was a place no tourist should have been going to because they were evacuating tends of thousands of people but there were ones who landed and were promptly taken against their will to refugee places with no information being given to them. Corfu was a place we had just been to a day or two before they had wildfires but only a portion of the island was ever impacted (it happened to be pretty close to where we were at though).

Would I go to Maui now? Well no not in the next few weeks and would avoid Lahaina for longer but I don't think it's as cut and dried about presuming locals will starve and have issues with scarcity of food and drink either. Where do you suppose all those people in the tourist industry will get their income from? They have bills to pay too and right now probably even more scared of how long they can sustain themselves on their current bank accounts if no one comes for a long enough time.

It's just a rock and a hard place right now and tourism has to walk that fine line both economically and ethically.

I'd feel badly going to Maui for the next few weeks for sure, especially after seeing some residents being interviewed. There was outrage and tears because they saw people swimming and snorkeling, right off of Lahaina. I heard the local snorkeling company apologized and said that they'd taken on tourists to snorkel because they were taking donations from them as well. But then to snorkel off of that area....feels so macabre. They said that people drowned in those waters trying to escape the flames. That town is a big graveyard right now.

But...you're right, they're going to have to accept tourists pretty quickly. I've heard that 50% of the economy is based on tourism, up to 80% indirectly. Just such a sad situation all around.