Caliexit

[The Mystery Machine]

I've been hearing about California's desire to secede, since I was in high school, which has been a few decades. I no longer pay much attention to it. Since we're discussing it, I've always wondered what their plan is to replace the US military support. Has that been discussed? If the vote passed & they were allowed to secede, the US military would most likely pull out immediately. Considering their economy, they will no doubt face invasions & takeover attempts from more countries than the US. Do they have a plan for that?

SUPER SONIC EASY to fill military in a state. Are you aware of the number of "military groups" out there in the USA? There are so many non military groups that participate in protection already.

For starters, if you are "the government" you will open up jobs for those positions. Not only would reg. people apply but you would have these non military groups DYING to get in there, esp. preppers. The number of people that put no faith in the government has grown pretty large.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I think it is more likely that the US merges with Canada and Mexico. California will never break off from the US.

That number is very deceiving. Were CA to break away from those "welfare states", it would have a detrimental impact on CA's revenue.

The notion that the states that pay in more than they receive don't "benefit" from those that are in the opposite camp is false.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

As a Canadian, I say no thanks.

But think of the great possibilities. Canada could claim a Stanley cup winner again!!! Oh and also football games that aren't puntastic puntaculars because we get four downs rather than three.

 

[mom2rtk]

As a Canadian, I say no thanks.

Nobody who reads here regularly is surprised by that.

 

[ColoradoDisneyFreaks]

14 states pay more in federal than they receive from federal. Yes California is one of them. My state New Jersey is also one of them. one state gets over 7 dollars for every dollar they pay to federal. Also a state that is a lot of people vacation spot here is also very high on the list think it was number 3 of getting paid by federal.

Those numbers are incredibly misleading as well. When people are quoting paying into Federal coffers vs. money received in the state, they're insinuating that the citizens of that state receive far more in Federal benefits and entitlements than they are paying into in income and business taxes, but they aren't talking only about benefits received from the Federal government, they're lumping in all Federal spending in that state. So if a state like Alabama, which has very low incomes, but has military bases, and NASA facilities takes all of the money funneled to those uses as well out of the equation, it's not as completely overbalanced as everyone likes to quote.

California has a very large economy, true, but their State government is running massive deficits as well, you take Federal funding out of that budget and it becomes untenable. Many things would have to change in California for it to be a viable country, most notably their state politics.

It's all a moot point anyway, the major initiator of the Calexit movement has decided to drop his petition and move to Russia. http://ktla.com/2017/04/19/calexit-leader-quits-secession-effort-to-make-his-home-in-russia/

 

[MillauFr]

their State government is running massive deficits as

That is not true.

The California budget is balanced every year. They may project a deficit but then the legislature adjusts spending or revenue to balance them. The state constitution doesn't not allow California to run a deficit.

 

[Branflakes]

I'm from SoCal. I haven't lived there in 25 years. I have no desire to go back. It isn't what it once was.

That said, loons are running the state of California and have been for a long time. Cede or not, they are where they are of there own doing.

 

[bcla]

Those numbers are incredibly misleading as well. When people are quoting paying into Federal coffers vs. money received in the state, they're insinuating that the citizens of that state receive far more in Federal benefits and entitlements than they are paying into in income and business taxes, but they aren't talking only about benefits received from the Federal government, they're lumping in all Federal spending in that state. So if a state like Alabama, which has very low incomes, but has military bases, and NASA facilities takes all of the money funneled to those uses as well out of the equation, it's not as completely overbalanced as everyone likes to quote.

California has a very large economy, true, but their State government is running massive deficits as well, you take Federal funding out of that budget and it becomes untenable. Many things would have to change in California for it to be a viable country, most notably their state politics.

It's all a moot point anyway, the major initiator of the Calexit movement has decided to drop his petition and move to Russia. http://ktla.com/2017/04/19/calexit-leader-quits-secession-effort-to-make-his-home-in-russia/

California doesn't run massive deficits. The state can borrow short term from some rainy day funds, but outside of capital improvement bonds, the state doesn't borrow like the federal government does.

No secession or orderly dissolution happens with the larger state just pulling out all resources. I don't want it happen, but sometimes this kind of talk does underscore how much the rest of the US takes for granted the state's impact on the country as a whole.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

SUPER SONIC EASY to fill military in a state. Are you aware of the number of "military groups" out there in the USA? There are so many non military groups that participate in protection already.

For starters, if you are "the government" you will open up jobs for those positions. Not only would reg. people apply but you would have these non military groups DYING to get in there, esp. preppers. The number of people that put no faith in the government has grown pretty large.

Call me crazy, but I'd hate to think I had to depend on militants & preppers to defend my home & family. Regardless, it takes more than people to form an effective military defense these days. Honestly, I don't care what California decides to do. I was just curious, if there had ever been an official plan proposed. If we're talking preppers & militants, I guess not.

It would be interesting. I think a similar situation would be what happened with the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Maybe such a secession could be more planned and less chaotic, but in the Soviet case, military materiel wasn't necessarily pulled out, and forces were recalled back to their particular home states. The former Soviet military forces were divided into multiple militaries. Ukraine had a lot of former Soviet military bases as well as equipment like aircraft, tanks, ships, etc. They had a joint Russia-Ukraine Black Sea Fleet to produce a more orderly transition. The proportion of Californians serving in the US military is pretty much proportional to the proportion of Californians, so there wouldn't necessarily be any lack of trained personnel.

Even with the Panama Canal Treaty, the removal of the US military was in gradual steps. When the Philippines became independent, they didn't immediately lose US military support. If there were any orderly secession (not like the Civil War) then I don't see the US pulling out the military immediately. It wouldn't make much sense because there would still be US citizens living in an independent California, and Californians would still remain US citizens.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm just not sure how citizens of the other US countries would feel about funding military resources in a state that seceded. It's a safe bet that there would be no love lost at that point among many US citizens. I don't expect it to happen, so it really doesn't matter at this point. I've just always been curious about the military aspect. FWIW, I think this is different from the Panama Canal.

 

[bcla]

Thanks for the explanation. I'm just not sure how citizens of the other US countries would feel about funding military resources in a state that seceded. It's a safe bet that there would be no love lost at that point among many US citizens. I don't expect it to happen, so it really doesn't matter at this point. I've just always been curious about the military aspect. FWIW, I think this is different from the Panama Canal.

I don't think it would happen, but there has to be a hope that there's an orderly transition to prevent chaos. I would be bad for hard feelings to create a situation where everyone loses. Proposals for secession usually include a requirement that a constitutional amendment be passed that agreed to the secession, so it's not something that would be done out of the blue. And of course there's a history of militaries being split due to secession or dissolution of a larger state.

I've been to an airshow once where the Canadian Air Force sent a couple of pilots. They didn't really do anything other than point at their planes and talk to attendees. It was in California, so it's not as if it was useful for recruitment. However, one was a native English speaker and the other was a native French speaker. I'm assuming the later was from Quebec, although that's not always the case. If Quebec had seceded, he might have had options to stay or leave.

There would have to be a lot of interesting negotiations, such as what to do about the status of treaties with Indian tribes, water rights, border controls, etc. However, it's not as if people couldn't come to an agreement to ease a transition.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

California doesn't run massive deficits. The state can borrow short term from some rainy day funds, but outside of capital improvement bonds, the state doesn't borrow like the federal government does.

No secession or orderly dissolution happens with the larger state just pulling out all resources. I don't want it happen, but sometimes this kind of talk does underscore how much the rest of the US takes for granted the state's impact on the country as a whole.

That cuts both ways though. CA's impact couldn't exist without the support of the other 49. Just as a prime example, most of the country depends on CA as a shipping port. On the flip side, CA depends on that demand for ports. That relationship doesn't exist with CA as it's own nation.

 

[bcla]

That cuts both ways though. CA's impact couldn't exist without the support of the other 49. Just as a prime example, most of the country depends on CA as a shipping port. On the flip side, CA depends on that demand for ports. That relationship doesn't exist with CA as it's own nation.

There are land-locked countries that depend on other countries for access to ports. Heck - a lot of imports to the US come through British Columbia, which is made easier because of NAFTA. It wouldn't be an insurmountable obstacle.

 

[JaxDad]

Dang! Then we'd need to build an even longer wall!

 

[Gumbo4x4]

There are land-locked countries that depend on other countries for access to ports. Heck - a lot of imports to the US come through British Columbia, which is made easier because of NAFTA. It wouldn't be an insurmountable obstacle.

No, but the point is you can't assume everything would just stay "as is" other than the creation of a new border.

Let's face it, the states are linked in ways most of us don't even consider.

 

[bcla]

No, but the point is you can't assume everything would just stay "as is" other than the creation of a new border.

Let's face it, the states are linked in ways most of us don't even consider.

Something like this would need to be negotiated, but it's not as if there would be an absolute refusal to engage in international trade due to spite. I mentioned Ukraine, which despite all the issues it has with Russia is still a top trade partner.

An orderly transition resulting from a constitutional amendment and an agreed upon framework could be considerably less messy. I don't think it's anything more than fantasy at this point, but it could happen.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Something like this would need to be negotiated, but it's not as if there would be an absolute refusal to engage in international trade due to spite. I mentioned Ukraine, which despite all the issues it has with Russia is still a top trade partner.

An orderly transition resulting from a constitutional amendment and an agreed upon framework could be considerably less messy. I don't think it's anything more than fantasy at this point, but it could happen.

Imagine a dystopian future where all the states have been turned into countries.

You would have states merging more than likely. It is an interesting topic.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

i was just reading about the 2019 Californian referendum to exit the Union.

I know we cannot have political discussions here so I am not trying to start a discussion on the political side, but find it an interesting thought.

If they voted yes would California be able to exit the Union?
Could you see California adapt as an independent country?

I'm having flashbacks of the referendum for Quebec to split from Canada that I voted in. That made as much sense as this makes to me. No one I ever discussed this with back then had really thought past the celebratory parade. They wanted to keep the postal service, keep the currency, keep the military defense, keep whatever they LIKED and just "be our own country... 'cause we're different...". I still don't get it, all of these years later.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

As a Canadian, I say no thanks.

As a dual citizen, Canada-US, choosing to live in the US, I say "no thanks" as well! Broad agreement!!!

 

[DisneylandDarling]

Ooooooh.... I might be tempted to move to California if it secedes. That would be really interesting.

If it joins Canada.... helllllllo, Justin Trudeau! lol

 

[bcla]

Imagine a dystopian future where all the states have been turned into countries.

You would have states merging more than likely. It is an interesting topic.

There have been cases of a lot of small states where they were technically different nations, but were otherwise culturally similar. The history of the world includes the smaller states that merged into Italy as well as Germany.

Latin America is even more interesting.