Caliexit

[tarheelmjfan]

I don't think it would happen, but there has to be a hope that there's an orderly transition to prevent chaos. I would be bad for hard feelings to create a situation where everyone loses. Proposals for secession usually include a requirement that a constitutional amendment be passed that agreed to the secession, so it's not something that would be done out of the blue. And of course there's a history of militaries being split due to secession or dissolution of a larger state.

I've been to an airshow once where the Canadian Air Force sent a couple of pilots. They didn't really do anything other than point at their planes and talk to attendees. It was in California, so it's not as if it was useful for recruitment. However, one was a native English speaker and the other was a native French speaker. I'm assuming the later was from Quebec, although that's not always the case. If Quebec had seceded, he might have had options to stay or leave.

There would have to be a lot of interesting negotiations, such as what to do about the status of treaties with Indian tribes, water rights, border controls, etc. However, it's not as if people couldn't come to an agreement to ease a transition.

If I were a Californian voting to secede, I would hope for US support, with an orderly transition, also. I'm sure they wouldn't pull out immediately, but CA had better be establishing a legitimate (non militant & prepper) military quickly. I wouldn't expect a similar situation to the Panama Canal. Do they really think, they can say "we don't need the US any longer, except for your military, of course?" Do they really think the majority of residents in the remaining US states would support that? There are also residents of CA who wouldn't be happy to give up their US military benefits to start over in a new country, unless CA is willing to step up & offer them much more. It sounds to me like this hasn't been well thought out.

As far as negotiations go, why would the US be willing to negotiate with a country wishing to secede? Everything that California provides could be provided by another US state.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

It sounds to me like this hasn't been well thought out.

If this is anything like Quebec's threats/votes to separate, don't expect it to be... at any point.

 

[dish rag]

I think it would be great if then the USA stopped all immigration from the new country.

 

[bcla]

If I were a Californian voting to secede, I would hope for US support, with an orderly transition, also. I'm sure they wouldn't pull out immediately, but CA had better be establishing a legitimate (non militant & prepper) military quickly. I wouldn't expect a similar situation to the Panama Canal. Do they really think, they can say "we don't need the US any longer, except for your military, of course?" Do they really think the majority of residents in the remaining US states would support that? There are also residents of CA who wouldn't be happy to give up their US military benefits to start over in a new country, unless CA is willing to step up & offer them much more. It sounds to me like this hasn't been well thought out.

As far as negotiations go, why would the US be willing to negotiate with a country wishing to secede? Everything that California provides could be provided by another US state.

There is such a thing as being mutually beneficial. Hard feelings might prevent realistic concessions, but there is a certain practicality.

Military benefits wouldn't be that difficult. People move outside the US and keep those benefits. VA healthcare is another matter.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

Imagine a dystopian future where all the states have been turned into countries.

You would have states merging more than likely. It is an interesting topic.

Personally, I would never support my state considering that.

If this is anything like Quebec's threats/votes to separate, don't expect it to be... at any point.

I agree. I've heard about California's wishes to secede for decades. If they think the US needs them to survive, they're living a pipe dream.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

There is such a thing as being mutually beneficial. Hard feelings might prevent realistic concessions, but there is a certain practicality.

Military benefits wouldn't be that difficult. People move outside the US and keep those benefits. VA healthcare is another matter.

What about Social Security? And Medicare? And any civil service retirement?

 

[tarheelmjfan]

There is such a thing as being mutually beneficial. Hard feelings might prevent realistic concessions, but there is a certain practicality.

Military benefits wouldn't be that difficult. People move outside the US and keep those benefits. VA healthcare is another matter.

What could CA offer the US that couldn't be provided by other states? Just curious.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

What could CA offer the US that couldn't be provided by other states? Just curious.

Some in Quebec thought they'd hold Canada hostage with their hydroelectric power. You know... the same thing Quebec sells to the US (Uh... another country) at times... since it has excess... somehow that wasn't persuasive...

 

[bcla]

What could CA offer the US that couldn't be provided by other states? Just curious.

There's no persuasive argument to discontinue trade with an independent California. California is a net exporter of agriculture, and the Central Valley is some of the best farmland in the world. There's no real incentive to stop. Like I said before, Russia and Ukraine still trade because its mutually beneficial.

 

[bcla]

What about Social Security? And Medicare? And any civil service retirement?

Such entitlements could be transferred to a new state. It's not as if there's no precedent in the world.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

Such entitlements could be transferred to a new state. It's not as if there's no precedent in the world.

So, I'd have to move, then?

 

[tarheelmjfan]

There's no persuasive argument to discontinue trade with an independent California. California is a net exporter of agriculture, and the Central Valley is some of the best farmland in the world. There's no real incentive to stop. Like I said before, Russia and Ukraine still trade because its mutually beneficial.

Other states in the country have plenty of farmland, as does Mexico, which we already trade with. There would be more incentives to cultivate those options, if CA seceded. Plus, there are other ways to produce agriculture. I don't see a persuasive argument to maintain trade with CA, if they secede. I really don't have a problem with CA, but I also don't think the rest of the US would suffer, without it. If they don't think stressed relations would be a factor, I don't think they're being realistic. I definitely wouldn't want my state to attempt to secede, because I think the US would be fine without any singular state. The other states could compensate. The individual state trying to survive as a country would would be the one with an uphill battle.

 

[tcufrog]

California financially supports several "welfare states." It doesn't need help from the Fed Govt. The Fed Govt needs help from CA...

I wonder if the Caliexit has considered the cost of the following: establishing their own currency and the system to administer; creating their own postal system from scratch; monitoring the really long border; creating an immigration and customs system; buying or leasing their own embassies across the world and staffing them; creating their own welfare and retirement systems; starting from scratch their own Coast Guard, Army, Navy and Air Force, etc.

The country would have trouble getting many countries to recognize them because they'd be afraid of angering the US and because they don't want to encourage the secessionists in their own countries. One of the problems fans of Scotland's secession has is that some countries such as Spain has threatened to block their admission to the EU because they don't want to give legitimacy to the secessionists in their own countries. Could they even join the UN? The US's Security Council veto might be able to block that.

I'm a Texan and I don't support the Texas secessionists.

Final thought: I've read several articles alleging that the Caliexit campaign may have ties to Russia. Here's one of them. I'm not into conspiracy theories and not sure if I believe this but the evidence is interesting to say the least.

 

[DLgal]

What could CA offer the US that couldn't be provided by other states? Just curious.

Almonds, apricots, dates, artichokes, cling peaches, dried plums, figs, olives, persimmons, pomegranate, raisins, sweet rice, walnuts, kiwi fruit, nectarines, pisachios (CA is essentially a sole producer of these crops with more than 99% of the country's supply.

They lead the country in production of: grapes, lemons, melons, peaches, plums, strawberries, lettuce, tomatoes.

CA ranks first among the states in manufacturing and mining. Oil is the primary mined commodity. CA mines all the country's Boron.

CA has the most productive commercial fishing operation in the country with Tuna being the number one catch.

Among other things....almost all of the computer and electronics engineering and manufacturing takes place in CA.

Practically the entire entertainment industry is located in CA. Movies, television, both Google and Apple, not to mention a certain Mouse centric company we all know and love.

I can go on. I suspect most people don't realize how essential CA is to the rest of the country.

 

[bcla]

Among other things....almost all of the computer and electronics engineering and manufacturing takes place in CA.

As someone who works in the electronics industry, that hasn't really been the case for a long time. I don't believe that there's a single large production semiconductor fab left in California. Even when I was just starting out in the 90s, what was left in California were "legacy" fabs as well as experimental/development facilities. Intel's largest worksite is in Washington County, Oregon. I remember running into an Intel employee in Arizona (Chandler, AZ is their second largest worksite) who thought that their HQ was in Oregon. There are electronics jobs all over the country. My first job offer was near Boston. Since I've been in the industry I've worked with coworkers at my various employers based in Arizona and Texas as well as overseas. I read about Apple opening a site in Orlando.

This is kind of a blunt tool, but the feds have statistics on this.

 

[DLgal]

As someone who works in the electronics industry, that hasn't really been the case for a long time. I don't believe that there's a single large production semiconductor fab left in California. Even when I was just starting out in the 90s, what was left in California were "legacy" fabs as well as experimental/development facilities. Intel's largest worksite is in Washington County, Oregon. I remember running into an Intel employee in Arizona (Chandler, AZ is their second largest worksite) who thought that their HQ was in Oregon. There are electronics jobs all over the country. My first job offer was near Boston. Since I've been in the industry I've worked with coworkers at my various employers based in Arizona and Texas as well as overseas. I read about Apple opening a site in Orlando.

This is kind of a blunt tool, but the feds have statistics on this.

I didn't mention anything about the numbers of engineers employed in the state. The information I gave came from this site:

http://www.netstate.com/economy/ca_economy.htm

 

[bcla]

I didn't mention anything about the numbers of engineers employed in the state. The information I gave came from this site:

http://www.netstate.com/economy/ca_economy.htm

That doesn't say that nearly all of computer and electronics manufacturing takes place in California. It's one of California's biggest manufacturing industries, but sadly that doesn't include much semiconductor fabrication nor packaging. There might be some speciality electronics manufacturing, but that might be for high-value, low volume stuff like defense electronics or space flight (i.e. SpaceX). Frankly what's left of actual electronics manufacturing in the United States is spread out across the country, but often in lower wage areas.

I happen to think the electronics industry would respond to anything without any kind of irrationality. Right now the electronics industry is multinational and it wouldn't really be that big a deal if a company was headquartered in an independent California with employees in the United States. What would be the most interesting would be tax treatment.

 

[donaldbuzz&minnie]

Rachael Maddow has been doing shows on this "movement". It's been started and funded by Russia - another one of Putin's attempts to destabilize democracies wherever and whenever he can. Please be careful.

 

[MillauFr]

What could CA offer the US that couldn't be provided by other states? Just curious.

Disneyland? The Florida park pales in comparison. Not sure why but it seems Disney puts all the best rides in California and Florida gets the cast offs. Florida gets Dinosaur. California gets Indiana Jones.

 

[bcla]

Disneyland? The Florida park pales in comparison. Not sure why but it seems Disney puts all the best rides in California and Florida gets the cast offs. Florida gets Dinosaur. California gets Indiana Jones.

Again - hypothetical, but I don't imagine entry into an independent California would be any more challenging than an American entering Canada.