Let's speculate about Polynesian some more!

[maui22]

On the one hand, "you can book at CFW *or* PVB at 11 months!" is a cool value prop.

On the other hand, if CFW dues are $12 and PVB dues are $8, why wouldn't you just buy PVB if staying at PVB is so attractive?

Or if they average out the dues (I don't know how this would be handled in a trust product), that effectively uses PVB (which would sell even with $10 dues) to subsidize sales of CFW (which will struggle at $10).

My gut still says that PVB Tower is part of the PVB association, and if they move forward with a multi-resort trust at some point it will be to combine CFW with a future Reflections product, allowing them to market complementary resorts without being forced to make them the same association, etc.

Just posted about the averaging of the dues. IIRC @Sandisw has posted this is not legal under the CFW POS. Owners can only pay for dues at their resort. Meaning CFW is stuck with those higher dues.

Here is a recent post, read it and the posts below.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/f...lso-debate-about-trusts.3942474/post-65389832

Hopefully @Sandisw will correct me if I'm wrong on this. Sounds like if they give all trust owners the same booking window they could make the dues work like you wrote. (I posted that as option 4 in the posts afterward. Thought I read somewhere in those threads that it wasn't legally possible).

I wonder how that works for resale. Would a CFW resale still be able to book Poly tower? After all, they would be paying dues for Poly tower (under a shared dues plan).

 

[Cabius]

Just posted about the averaging of the dues. IIRC @Sandisw has posted this is not legal under the CFW POS. Owners can only pay for dues at their resort. Meaning CFW is stuck with those higher dues.

Here is a recent post, read it and the posts below.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/f...lso-debate-about-trusts.3942474/post-65389832

Hopefully @Sandisw will correct me if I'm wrong on this. Sounds like if they give all trust owners the same booking window they could make the dues work like you wrote. (I posted that as option 4 in the posts afterward. Thought I read somewhere in those threads that it wasn't legally possible).

I wonder how that works for resale. Would a CFW resale still be able to book Poly tower? After all, they would be paying dues for Poly tower (under a shared dues plan).

Interesting... and good point about the risk of folding in HHI or VB in future years. I've always assumed Disney will just sell those off at expiration, but who knows? It would definitely make any trust product much less attractive to me if it were a shared-dues model.

 

[Sandisw]

Just posted about the averaging of the dues. IIRC @Sandisw has posted this is not legal under the CFW POS. Owners can only pay for dues at their resort. Meaning CFW is stuck with those higher dues.

Here is a recent post, read it and the posts below.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/f...lso-debate-about-trusts.3942474/post-65389832

Hopefully @Sandisw will correct me if I'm wrong on this. Sounds like if they give all trust owners the same booking window they could make the dues work like you wrote. (I posted that as option 4 in the posts afterward. Thought I read somewhere in those threads that it wasn't legally possible).

I wonder how that works for resale. Would a CFW resale still be able to book Poly tower? After all, they would be paying dues for Poly tower (under a shared dues plan).

The owners only pay for dues to operate the property activated in the same resort use plan.

So, if they put both CFW and Poly tower units under the same vacation plan, then it would be based on that.

However, I lean toward that not being how it wlll be set up. Component sites will have their own plans and run like that with maybe better and early access to other properties in that trust association

 

[maui22]

The owners only pay for dues to operate the property activated in the same resort use plan.

So, if they put both CFW and Poly tower units under the same vacation plan, then it would be based on that.

However, I lean toward that not being how it wlll be set up. Component sites will have their own plans and run like that with maybe better and early access to other properties in that trust association

Thank you @Sandisw

Interesting... and good point about the risk of folding in HHI or VB in future years. I've always assumed Disney will just sell those off at expiration, but who knows? It would definitely make any trust product much less attractive to me if it were a shared-dues model.

I thought the same thing about HHI and VB being sold off. If the trust can share dues across properties, makes sense for Disney should to just roll them in. A point is a point if trust does share dues across all trust properties.

Would that make the opening booking window competition really difficult? Not terrible initially since it would be CFW + Poly tower. Isn't that the case for other timeshares with a RTU plan? Isn't there fierce competition at the opening booking window for the popular destinations?

 

[Mai Ku Tiki]

Can we get this back to being a poly tower conspiracy thread? Thanks in advance.

YES! (I'll save my Murphy Bed Qs for another time. JUST KIDDING. I agree.

 

[Patsaizan]

He is a wild speculation. What if DVD rolls all unsold points into the trust? Unsold points DVD currently has, both at sold out resorts (the points they have available to sell) and “first run” resorts such as RR and Aulani. That would expand the trust and those who buy under the trust’s ability to book. In some ways this sounds far fetched, but DVC could sell the points they have that would have been deeded to the trust and turn around and sell those points as trust points.

 

[Chili327]

He is a wild speculation. What if DVD rolls all unsold points into the trust? Unsold points DVD currently has, both at sold out resorts (the points they have available to sell) and “first run” resorts such as RR and Aulani. That would expand the trust and those who buy under the trust’s ability to book. In some ways this sounds far fetched, but DVC could sell the points they have that would have been deeded to the trust and turn around and sell those points as trust points.

That is intriguing for me... Aulani, VDH, Poly, CFW & RIV all in one. (maybe 2042 resorts can be added as well?)

 

[Cabius]

He is a wild speculation. What if DVD rolls all unsold points into the trust? Unsold points DVD currently has, both at sold out resorts (the points they have available to sell) and “first run” resorts such as RR and Aulani. That would expand the trust and those who buy under the trust’s ability to book. In some ways this sounds far fetched, but DVC could sell the points they have that would have been deeded to the trust and turn around and sell those points as trust points.

I think those who have read the documents (not me!) have posted that DVD could add whole units to a potential Trust product, but not add points.

Each owner technically owns a percentage ownership interest in a single unit of real estate, which corresponds to one or more physical rooms.

DVD likely does not own any whole units at any sold-out DVC resort. Even if they own 3% or 5% of the points, what they really own is a percentage interest in multiple physical units of real estate, and that interest is shared with other DVC owners. They cannot take the unit that I partially own and move it into a trust.

But maybe there are undeclared units at RIV or even AUL that could be added?

 

[maui22]

DVCNews February sales report shows Riviera has 24.6% of their points undeclared
https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program-men...y-for-fort-wilderness-cabins-in-february-2024

The declared inventory accounts for 5,081,401 points, or 75.4% of the resort’s total points

The most recent declaration of Riviera inventory was on December 23, 2023. Added 622,402 points to the existing Riviera association.
https://dvcnews.com/wdw-resorts/riv...-32-vacation-homes-to-riviera-s-dvc-inventory

Here is a breakdown of the types of vacation homes that have been declared for Riviera:

• 18 of 24 Tower Studios
• 28 of 38 Dedicated Studios
• 23 of 29 Dedicated One-Bedroom Villas
• 106 of 148 Lockoff Two-Bedroom Villas
• 71 of 90 Dedicated Two-Bedroom Villas
• 10 of 12 Three-Bedroom grand villas

October 2023, we already knew CFW was a RTU trust. Why declare more Riviera inventory into the existing Riviera association if they had plans to include it with CFW trust? BTW, the December Riviera declaration was the largest Riviera declaration since the master declaration.

Image is from Florida's publicly accessible DBPR web site.



Legally, perhaps they potentially could declare those remaining undeclared into the trust, but it would give the perception of not well thought out.

Given everything with the Disney shareholder vote right now, do they really want shareholders thinking they haven't known what they are doing for at least the last 5-6 months?

 

[T00dles]

Anyone know if the poly tower will have dedicated 2BR's? Or, will they all be lock-offs?

 

[Patsaizan]

I think those who have read the documents (not me!) have posted that DVD could add whole units to a potential Trust product, but not add points.

Each owner technically owns a percentage ownership interest in a single unit of real estate, which corresponds to one or more physical rooms.

DVD likely does not own any whole units at any sold-out DVC resort. Even if they own 3% or 5% of the points, what they really own is a percentage interest in multiple physical units of real estate, and that interest is shared with other DVC owners. They cannot take the unit that I partially own and move it into a trust.

But maybe there are undeclared units at RIV or even AUL that could be added?

I have been reading up on the trust model and feel like I have a vague understanding after hours of research. There is a lot of legal implications that go off in different directions making my non-educated legal mind confused. What I do gleem is other timeshares have put the trust model out there over the deeded model, when they have been doing the deeded model all along. A change in the way of selling. It is supposed to be a more streamlined approach for using points (their words) and offering the client the ability to book more resorts in the collection at earlier dates (as if they “owned” there). From what I can tell, other timeshares have pulled some units that were once in the deeded model into the trust model (and it seems like they are talking about previous sold out resorts). How, I have no idea.

You said DVD does not own any whole units in a sold out resort. Right now that is correct (if we see a massive ROFR then it may be a clue that they are looking to wholly own more units, but even that would take a long time to acquire just one in a sold out resort).

Will they start offering incentives for those of us who are deeded to join the trust? It appears other timeshares have done this. From what I gather with other timeshares the end “owner” (us) would have to pay further to do this. It is confusing. I honestly wonder where it is all going and the implications for all current selling resorts and the trust. Will all or a portion of the Poly 2 be put in the trust? Maybe, just maybe, will will know more when the new incentives come out on April 1.

 

[maui22]

Anyone know if the poly tower will have dedicated 2BR's? Or, will they all be lock-offs?

There will be dedicated 2BRs, but we do not know the number for certain.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/the-poly2-pricing-thread.3875905/post-65060506
@aka Charles had a good post using some documents that have already been filed.
If you read the post, at that time speculation (using the blueprint filed, which I think was the lobby floor plus one additional floor) was only 6 dedicated 2BRs.

@aka Charles and @ehh provided some very informative information from that blueprint.

 

[maui22]

You said DVD does not own any whole units in a sold out resort. Right now that is correct (if we see a massive ROFR then it may be a clue that they are looking to wholly own more units, but even that would take a long time to acquire just one in a sold out resort).

Not sure if they can legally take back a unit once it's declared into inventory with points sold.

Even if they could, it would be very difficult for them to use ROFR to get all points for a specific unit. For example, maybe BCV unit 1 contains 50,000 points. They need to use ROFR on every contract with a deeded interest associated with that unit. Unlikely all those points in unit 1 will be sold around the same time. If they are sold and ROFR is used, Disney has to hold onto them until they receive all 50,000 before they could (if legal) change the unit from leasehold (existing) to right to use (trust).

Basically, it's illegal for them to acquire 50,000 BCV points (across multiple units) and change unit 1 from leasehold (existing) and then declare it as RTU (trust).

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

There will be dedicated 2BRs, but we do not know the number for certain.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/the-poly2-pricing-thread.3875905/post-65060506
@aka Charles had a good post using some documents that have already been filed.
If you read the post, at that time speculation (using the blueprint filed, which I think was the lobby floor plus one additional floor) was only 6 dedicated 2BRs.

@aka Charles and @ehh provided some very informative information from that blueprint.

We have haven’t floor plans for the upper floors right? I’m still holding out hope for a public space (or lounge or restaurant) with a dramatic view.

 

[T00dles]

There will be dedicated 2BRs, but we do not know the number for certain.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/the-poly2-pricing-thread.3875905/post-65060506
@aka Charles had a good post using some documents that have already been filed.
If you read the post, at that time speculation (using the blueprint filed, which I think was the lobby floor plus one additional floor) was only 6 dedicated 2BRs.

@aka Charles and @ehh provided some very informative information from that blueprint.

Thanks! Wow, only 6 Dedicated 2BRs and 88 lock-offs. Not going to be easy to book those rooms. Will be interesting how this rolls out with so many studios, and small contract purchases potentially keeping Poly owners out of booking the higher point rooms at 11 months.

 

[LoveToDisney]

Thanks! Wow, only 6 Dedicated 2BRs and 88 lock-offs. Not going to be easy to book those rooms. Will be interesting how this rolls out with so many studios, and small contract purchases potentially keeping Poly owners out of booking the higher point rooms at 11 months.

Hopefully that means my chances for booking a 1BR at 7months may be good.

 

[Sandisw]

He is a wild speculation. What if DVD rolls all unsold points into the trust? Unsold points DVD currently has, both at sold out resorts (the points they have available to sell) and “first run” resorts such as RR and Aulani. That would expand the trust and those who buy under the trust’s ability to book. In some ways this sounds far fetched, but DVC could sell the points they have that would have been deeded to the trust and turn around and sell those points as trust points.

The way the trust is set up and from all my research this can not happen at the sold out resorts because they do not own whole units.

For RIv, VDH, and AUL, they could move undeclared units, but that’s it.

They must add actual prieprty and not just “points”, since points are just a way to define ownership interest.

 

[Sandisw]

I have been reading up on the trust model and feel like I have a vague understanding after hours of research. There is a lot of legal implications that go off in different directions making my non-educated legal mind confused. What I do gleem is other timeshares have put the trust model out there over the deeded model, when they have been doing the deeded model all along. A change in the way of selling. It is supposed to be a more streamlined approach for using points (their words) and offering the client the ability to book more resorts in the collection at earlier dates (as if they “owned” there). From what I can tell, other timeshares have pulled some units that were once in the deeded model into the trust model (and it seems like they are talking about previous sold out resorts). How, I have no idea.

You said DVD does not own any whole units in a sold out resort. Right now that is correct (if we see a massive ROFR then it may be a clue that they are looking to wholly own more units, but even that would take a long time to acquire just one in a sold out resort).

Will they start offering incentives for those of us who are deeded to join the trust? It appears other timeshares have done this. From what I gather with other timeshares the end “owner” (us) would have to pay further to do this. It is confusing. I honestly wonder where it is all going and the implications for all current selling resorts and the trust. Will all or a portion of the Poly 2 be put in the trust? Maybe, just maybe, will will know more when the new incentives come out on April 1.

If I am not mistaken, those deeded units that changed were weeks based units that then converted. So, in those cases, the had an entire unit for a defined set time.

However, DVC is not like that and is points based FCFS, with ownership not defined to a specific time period. Plus, the actual documents for the trust set up by DVD states it must define the real property being added.

So, I don’t think it can work the same way. Plus there is no need to confound things that way as this model can simply roll out with future resorts.

 

[maui22]

Thanks! Wow, only 6 Dedicated 2BRs and 88 lock-offs. Not going to be easy to book those rooms. Will be interesting how this rolls out with so many studios, and small contract purchases potentially keeping Poly owners out of booking the higher point rooms at 11 months.

We do not know for sure on the room numbers. The information they used was guessing DVD uses the exact same room types on floors 3 through all but the floors where GVs seem likely. That is how DVD has typically done it, but again not guaranteed.

 

[MyDogTink]

Thanks! Wow, only 6 Dedicated 2BRs and 88 lock-offs. Not going to be easy to book those rooms. Will be interesting how this rolls out with so many studios, and small contract purchases potentially keeping Poly owners out of booking the higher point rooms at 11 months.

I really dislike lock-offs. When studios are gone, so is your availability to book a 2BR. The only good thing is that the 1BRs appear to have 2 full bathrooms so they could be a good option.